Spoilers: Path of Rage Quitting

And here I thought the title was a clever way of describing crafting.

 

It might just be me, but the only quests lines that I've actually felt drawn into so far were the original ones pre-Novia. I liked the grumpy stand offish agent and watching him begrudgingly come around to ask for help was vindication. I'm still extremely annoyed at not being able to resolve the Clink issue in a satisfying manner and having to leave a corrupt town leader and prison warden in power. I was happy to give piece of mind to those who were worried about missing loved ones in Braemar. I still am both bummed and amused that we caused an extinction of an entire species because of an early release Kingsport quest.

Post Novia, I've only done PoL so far (can't turn in the death of Min and though my journal says the task should be easy for me, I can't proceed further into Malice due to OP spiders and undead), but I have yet to feel that level of attachment to any of these so far. I wish I could have sided with Min, as at least then the frigging undead would leave me alone and I might be able to help further some progression in the world.

I know we have talented story tellers, and I like beauty of the world, but it seems from these posts and the little I've been able to see so far due to running for my life, that punishing mob grinding is the focus here rather than story.

 

What does that have to do with the OP ???

 

Some suggestions....

Spoiler: Spoilery

Further to posting a wall of text I thought of a couple suggestions that might make this experience better, although I fear it may be at too finished a stage at this point to modify.
When you are a brand new character, you are directed toward the oracle fairly early on.
I think it would be a bit more interesting if you were able to activate the find-a-page quest at that point, perhaps a little bit less obtrusively (IE, the oracle tells you there are hidden fragments of knowledge around, which activates your quest flag and allows you to see/get the pages, but perhaps they dont come up in journals/tasks till you find them?) and obtain them naturally through exploration and gameplay instead of having a list of things to "go get" thrust upon you at some later date.
You could even use the vault destinations and PvE routes to such for subquests. A great example is the Rhun Vault beneath Graff Gem mines. There are already NPCs in place who direct you to the mines and there's a little quest in there, why not have another sending players to the vault within - while they're there for either mining or exploration - it would cross that one off the list fairly early on. Similar for the page in Midras that can be accessed via Spectral Mines>Midmaer passage. You can even enter that series of tunnels from Soltown which would create quite an adventure for a group of new folks to go on. We as players have already artificially created such 'adventures' in showing new folks the underground network this would just give the journey a destination and award the player a page of lost lore. Since there are already PvE paths to each of the vaults, adding quests that could be done that funnel the player towards the vaults and allow them to collect the pages could be done concurrently with the 3 story quests, and when you do report for duty at the Big Oracle in Brittany, well, you may already have most of the lore already gathered through your general play efforts. At this point you could just receive a list of whatever's left. The hope is that if there is quest content leading toward each of these areas that most players by the time they have levelled up sufficiently to be ready to tackle this part of the quest have likely already visited all the zones in question for other reasons.

If you learned more of the lore each step along the way, instead of being handed a book to read at the end, it might make the journey a bit more interesting instead of a tedious chore to rush through.

Lastly, I know its been asked, but being able to see how your actions affect your virtue would go a long, long way toward making players care about virtue, instead of it being an invisible system that there's no clear way how to affect anything. We keep saying that choices have meaning, but often times you don't even realize you are doing something that effects anything. I mean, stealing is pretty obvious that its 'bad', and giving a coin to a beggar could be 'good', but some of the decisions that the oracle tells me I've made when I consult about virtue I have no idea what its even talkinga bout. I answered 'yes' to the love test every day and got paid for months and one day - inexplicably - my love virtue went negative. The oracle said this was because I chose not to intervene in some argument between strangers. I still to this day have no idea what this was about, obviously it was something I ran past somewhere, but through normal gameplay I don't generally talk to NPCs unless I'm selling them something so I'm not sure how this happened. It seems that quests, and subquests, and sidequests, offer excellent opportunities for one to improve one's virtue but there's little feedback from the game about what your decisions are actually affecting and no way to even check your progress. If I need to go give a coin to that beggar every day to try and repair my virtue, then I will do so, but there's no way to even know if doing that is having an effect. This is frustrating to players who DO want to participate in the virtue system, and in the lore of the world, an aspect of the game that I feel largely gets ignored because of its impregnability (or frustrating hopelessness). If I need to go tell the blacksmith "My Name is Shimizu" every day to improve my truth virtue (which lets face it, I'd probably have to go introduce myself to every NPC in every town every day for a year at this point, because of the amount of uhh...inkwell acquisition....well, at least I could work on it. But there's no indication that doing this would help, or wouldn't, or what activities would help, etc. So now I have this book and cloak that reflect my un-virtuous nature, which isn't an accurate reflection by any means of how I comport myself in the world. I don't kill anyone, I regularly help people out, etc. Yeah, I'm a carrot thief, but I don't think that being a carrot thief makes me a bad person forever irredeemable even if I never stole another carrot until the end of days. I'm a carrot thief because there was a time when there was no other way to get carrots. There's still no other way to get a load of other items. It seems that the cart has got put in front of the horse here a bit with the virtue hit but no alternative way to get the items in question.

Lastly, the free dialogue system is a powerful tool, but often its just seen as a frustration because at the end of the day, you ARENT HAVING a conversation. You are clicking through a list of scripted dialogue based on keywords until you hit upon the one that updates your quest log and if you haven't activated some previous flag, then it wont work. Or sometimes it will, which results in breaking the whole chain and ending up with a mess of tasks, many of which you can never complete because you've already done the next step. I'd say this could be improved in one of two ways: either a) make the dialogue linear, since it is anyway, but it will save the confusion/frustration or b) stop players fishing for the magic word by not linking the 'journal updated' to a specific word. Instead just log the whole conversation and let people refer to it to figure out what to do next. The quest journal is viciously unhelpful in trying to figure out where you left off especially if you aren't doing the quests in a single sitting, which no new player can do as the difficulty ramps up and grinding up/gearing up a character is going to be necessary before proceeding to the next part of the quest, at least in the case of the Path of Love.

As I say, it may be far too late now to make significant changes to any of the questlines, but its something to keep in mind for the future:
a) needs to be engaging, player needs to care why they are doing this
b) needs to be rewarding, with rewards at least equivalen to what the player can achieve grinding for the same amount of hours the quest takes; OR, should offer unique rewards. Think of all the cool deco that could be quest rewards, like the virtue statues. You've already got dozens if not hundreds of assets in the game that players can't obtain (thinking of all the crockery, urns, fencing styles, props, wall fabrics, table fabrics, etc. that we see everywhere but can't get). Make them quest rewards along the way, so at least the player feels they are getting something. The player can also use their house as a testament to their achievements in the game, instead of just how much crap they bought. That's a much better monument to your hours invested.

 

Haha, hes referring to something in my spoiler post :X

 

This is not just your rationalization. Devs have explicitly stated it and I think there might be an NPC or two that reference it. Oracle mentions that her power isn't able to protect everywhere I think (I'd have to double check this as I haven't actually gone through Oracle dialogue in a very very very very very long time). When I get home tonight I'll try to see if I can remember those who told me this and get actual quotes instead of just memory.

 

The Flying Femig

That sounds like a new community-led award to be given to trivial annoyances not contributing to good game play. Should the devs be asked to address at least one Flying Femig each telethon? With shots?

A good read. Thanks!

 

I have thought this for a very long time and am glad I am not the only one. These Hidden Vale quests definitely have choices and consequences that you can pick from that do alter how the NPC's deal with you. Freeing or killing Myra's (name?) brother from the clink is a great ethical dilemma that I think affects your virtue AND has multiple outcomes. Do you kill him and then lie to Myra about it? Or, do you try to free him and honestly explain to Myra what happened. This is an example of a good quest, IMHO. Another example with Myra is when Morton offers you gold to lie about her produce. If you do it, you get the gold but Myra no longer talks to you. It's a simple little quest but it does offer you choices that do seem to have a consequence...

 

I agree with the notion that the game world should give us at least strong clues on why we should care about the major construct of the story we are asked to enroll ourselves in. To me that's a key immersion element.

But I can't help but wonder if the real challenge of the Oracle could be more subtle. To test the Avatar's choice to believe it or not. What would it take to believe in it? Believe because we are told to earn virtue? Believe because we are told that if we don't we're going to some smoky Novian Hades? (Well that wouldn't work as we already slay the undead there.). Or is it just a test to see who believes just to believe ... in something? We have to consider that the Oracle very well might be a kobold contraption devised to mislead hapless believers. Are we sure we want to believe?

 

Watch out, people will say that you just never cared to begin with, and then get into arguments of a review or not. I mean it's obvious it's all because you are not holding it right.

22 chances for RMT of course!

 

Gonna have to QFT on this. I was trying to figure out the puzzle for the barrier to the Oracle Colossus, and stupid ghosts kept bothering me. I can kind of understand when nuisance mobs are placed to keep players from mining too fast, because there are economic implications, but this was just annoying. (The puzzle hurting me I was okay with.) Fortunately, about half the time in the rest of the area, I was able to get Silent Movement to work, as long as I didn't get too close to something.

Maybe that's why Ruins areas don't get much actual PvP or even farming? Not much need to worry about getting ganked, when someone would have to actually want to camp a ruins zone, getting beat up by obsidian golems (Now with all-new anti-magic power!) while waiting for sheep to pass by just long enough to get a page.

Another problem for me was the entrance to Grannus Colossus. Holy crap, the number of Ulfbermunchkins was unbelievable. At adventurer level 75 with my avoiding a bandwagon build (and especially not using arrows), I was beaten to a pulp while waiting for the gates to open that didn't have a vine over them, because I was attacked by three mobs at a time, with few places to hide to recover focus.

Still, getting the lenses felt somehow better done than the first three paths, kind of like the difference between East Perennial Trail and Blood River Outskirts. The page hunt was somewhat uninspired, but did encourage exploration and even research. There were also points when I started to watch a youtube video, and figured things out before I got to that part of the video.

 

That part made me LOL hard irl. I've never been a real "story guy" in games but I was looking forward to it in SotA. The book was great imo...why can't the writing of the quests live up to that bar?
I appreciate your feedback BDF. I have limited time to actually "play". I'm not going to waste it on questing until I start hearing positive feedback about it. I'd Hoped things were taking a turn for the better andI went to the new Blood RIver Outskirts and I was just like "Seriously?" Good lord... the quests were so buggy that if I'd taken the time out to /bug each one I'd have gotten nothing at all done. I kept thinking to myself... How great...they just opened a Free Trial period and this is going to be the experience some poor sob is gonna have. I really hope the devs are listening.

@DarkStarr @Lum the Mad

 

Lol. The sleeper has awakened. Finally stopped drinking the Kool aid you've been passing around, eh?

 

Re the comment about being a large backer:. Even a big backer still contributed a fraction of a percent of the total, so Devs, please don't give additional weight based on that compared to others who have given near identical feedback for far longer.

 

Ha! You of all people (being a past moderator) should know my long history of calling a spade a spade on a large variety of topics. How many times do think I've been reported over the years just for saying what other people didn't like hearing?

I'm universally hated. Reddit calls me a white knight (among other things). Before that the hate sites compared me to their least favorite real world political animals (simultaneously on the right and the left). The power gamers say I don't play the game enough to even know what I'm talking about. The social players say I care too much about levels and power. The PKs say I'm not a "real pvper" because I want players to be held accountable for their actions. The trolls say I'm a stupid whale cultist that should be dismissed. The devs have publicly called me rude and privately called me an extremist, and someone that they "sometimes hate the things I say on the forums." I was once personally invited to the combat scrum because I would "tell my opinion to anyone regardless of who it was" and then quickly removed from the scrum because I told my opinion and the stock scrum players couldn't handle it.

When people agree with me, I'm spot on, I'm seeing the light. When they disagree with me, I'm an idiot that's drinking the Kool-aid.

I've been doing this for over 4 years man. I may not always have been 100% right about everything. But I don't screw around when I think speaking up will make the game better, and if anyone looks at my posts collectively they'll see a pattern of actionable feedback. Situation, Task, Action, (possible) Resolution. Very rarely have I just spouted nonsense that was only "this sux" and expected the development team to magically fix it to "not sux".

I doubt anyone that has already developed a narrative about me is going to be swayed by any of this. But sometimes it just feels good to put it out there since I can't really expect anyone to dig through all of my 17k posts.

 

For me, there's two keystones to the foundation of this game. Story and Sandbox.

I love the story aspect, and have read the Sword of Midras twice, and then got the audio book to boot. The concepts, lore and world are great, but the questing doesn't seem to provide the same feeling.

I did the path of courage, then went back to do the path of love. Then quit questing all together because for my solo play style and chosen build, I couldn't survive. I feel like I'm being compelled to find the flavor of the month build and min/max everything. Maybe I could overcome this by going completely offline and relying on companions, but then I can no longer have an impact on the world/community and I don't believe I could handle grinding another character up. I'd love to experience the story, but difficulty is a barrier when you're solo. The way quests work, is hit an miss in my opinion and sometimes I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be doing. When I'm stuck, I can't find alternate quests to pass the time and progress my character to be better prepared for higher difficulty zones.

Looking online for spoilers because you've spent hours/days searching for something doesn't sound fun and breaks immersion. Heck, even the implementation of sotamap into the game is frustrating. I'm glad they finally decided to add maps, but they're inaccurate and buggy as heck. Difficulty isn't linear either, as your chosen build could make some quest neigh impossible while making some other higher difficulty zones easier than intended. Regardless of what your "level" is. There's no balance there.

With regards to the sandbox side of things, if you can't progress in the story you can progress in your chosen character path (Combat, crafting, etc.). However, lack of a leveling system, prevents me from feeling like I'm progressing my character in any meaningful way. Advancing my skills in my chosen profession as a goal was a grind. I finally got to where I could train the summon lich skill only to find I couldn't complete the quest. Instead of a quest that makes me feel like a powerful death mage, rewarded for his devotion to the art, I feel frustrated because: A. Undead are resistant to death magic, provide no healing to the death mage when drained, and our pets are questionable. B. Even when I break down and ask for help, it turns out the quest is broken and I'd need to solo it because only one can pass the barrier. (At the time I attempted this, it was the case). All that for a pet which has minimal use or benefit in the end.

It's harder to log in these days, because I don't feel there is any motivation to do so. I feel like I'm at an impasse and there isn't anything left that I can do in the game. I just wander off more often, and come back later hoping that things have gotten a little better.

 

Lol. Yes, I've seen quite a bit over the years and it's not quite as you describe. I'd rather not get your thread deleted by straying off topic, so let's leave it at that.

It's nice to see you've reached the same conclusion as a lot of other long term backers you've been at odds with.

 

The comment about being a large backer (and investor) and being active in the game/community was to remind any developer reading the OP that they may disagree with my analysis, but they might think twice before disagreeing with my motivation for providing it.

The idea that "people" have been giving identical feedback for a long time is a bit of a stretch. Have people given negative feedback about the quests for a long time, yes. Have people used snarky comments for a long time, yes. Have people been unsatisfied with the quests for a long time, absolutely. But has their feedback been IDENTICAL to mine? No. The main quest line has only been able to be completed for a short period of time (not a long time). But I've been giving feedback (positive and negative) about the quests in their "current state" for as long as anyone has. You may not know that, which is fine, but it's verifiably true from forum archives.

Did you know that when I first started following this game I put in just $10 for months and months? Did you know that I also started my own website called EvilGrief.com where I ranted about the game design decisions? This lasted for many months until I decided that the site wasn't necessary at all, because I was able to give all kinds of feedback and the development team was listening! I really couldn't believe it. Here I had setup a website to bring special attention to the areas of the game I cared most about PVP and Roleplaying and it wasn't even needed. I was only pledging $10 and they treated me every bit as important as everyone else.

Over time my pledge amount increased slowly but eventually I believed so much in the project that it grew well beyond what I ever intended. I'm not wealthy, I make a very modest income actually. But as some people may drink away their money (I don't drink) and others might turn to women or speed boats or some other hobby that may require tons of money, I put my money here. Because I enjoy roleplaying and pvp and I thought this development team understood that (and I still do). Despite the fact that nothing here changes fast enough for me. Nothing here changes overnight or gets better at the rate I wish it would. Despite the fact that the developers are no more likely to listen to me than anyone else (regardless of how much money I put into this game).

It's easy to pick sides, us vs. them. But for the most part, we all honestly just want the best game we can get. Sometime during this long development people grew tired of waiting, didn't see the results they wanted, and got annoyed or scared because they had invested too much money or too much faith into something they couldn't control. Other times people had expectations that were too rigid and although they could control them if they chose to, they didn't. It's now many years later, and to say or suggest that players long ago could predict where we are today is a stretch. It's unfair. It's not productive. It's a waste of time.

The OP is based on actually playing quests that can be completed. It's not based on conjecture from years ago. That's an important distinction to understand. I didn't create a narrative and then harp on it for years as I adjusted the facts to fit that narrative. I called a spade a spade when it was possible to do so. I believe the quests can still be fixed. I believe the development team will listen to me as much as they listen to ANY good feedback. But I can't make you believe that. You're going to believe what you want to believe. That's the world we live in. That's the way the internet works.

 

Actually rest assured that the ones you get responses from do not need to dig through all of them.

After reading 1000 of your posts, what is easy achieved if you are with the Forum from start it is easy to get a good picture of your position.
No need to achieve all 17000.

And you are not that hated like you presume.

You just are to stubborn on your own believe.
Like all of us.

Your feedback in this threat is maybe more detailed but no different for me like a Sir Frank who once posted in short words and seldom about him patiently waiting for the Solo Story.

No different then a Sir Cabrius that gave up waiting for a Solo Story.
No different then a Lord Darkmoon or a Rune and any other who posted about it.

But you tell us right now in this threat that it is.
That you waitet and your feedback is now more constructice. And you wonder why you get hate?

Your feedback is 2 years to late about Solo Game my friend. Train has left long ago.
The Core System will always force Lum into more and more Hat Quest style.

Your just so active in this Forum that it is hard to not get into the spotlight or a special attention.
Like Hermine always raising a hand to every subject. Snape getting mad as she responds even not being chosen.
I wanted the Developers answer not yours Hermine. But you always do.

It is Leviosa Reddit Users!



Yes. We get it. Thx for correcting that we are wrong. Even if at the core we say the same.

 

You are right and this is something I really don't get. Richard said at the beginning of development that he found a new way to tell a meaningful story in a multiplayer environment and I am still puzzled as to what this new way is. The story and quests play out like in every other themepark MMO. No choices with consequences, extreme limitations due to the multiplayer focus... What is the new way???
The story and quests of SotA are meaningless if nothing we can do has an impact on the world.
The overall story may be good or even great but if the way this story is told is so bland and boring with nothing we do having any impact or meaning why should we play through this story in the first place?

It is such a chore to play the story of this game. There is no fun to it. This begins with lots and lots of fedex quests, searching for the right NPCs in cities that are clearly designed for housing- and not for story/immersion-reasons, searching for the right keywords, having to grind in between, not getting many clues as where to go next, a bland presentation of the story with walls of text and no consequences to everything we do. This is so disappointing for a game that is described to be "story-driven" with a "single-player narrative".
And sadly with this description, SotA will be judged in this regard and do you really think it can hold up to other story-driven games and single-player narratives? I don't.