Stream Vods - PvP talks from Chris

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Violet Ronso, Nov 1, 2021.

  1. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I like where this is all going with what was discussed it almost sounds like we are looking at DAOC faction like system with things to fight over. Faction buffs, faction pvp gear to earn and even possible pvp deco, titles, emotes, ctf options for pots , working guild war system etc... look forward to anything that may come as it would be better than nothing :)
     
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  2. FBohler

    FBohler Avatar

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    It's been quite a long time since I last heard of the PvP think tank.
    Can some insider give us news? Is it still a thing? Maybe a R100 surprise?
     
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  3. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    Yeah I was wondering the same thing myself...

    And got me thinking... uh oh. Would it be possible to completely shut off durability loss to gear in pvp? We currently don't get any type of reward, why should the gear be damaged? I think this is a reasonable request, especially in the arena and obsidian trials.
     
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  4. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I'd second this as well in non pvp pots. nothing worse than being flagged and someone finding you afk and kills you over and over when you respawn lol. it can get costly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
  5. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    If for whatever reason you choose to go afk while flagged as pvp, you are basically telling everyone to kill you. Just my personal opinion.
     
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  6. Adam Crow

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    Haha yeah, kind of have to agree with @Anpu there. Saw someone doing that in the shardfall last night, and it took all my willpower not to attack them. We did have a good fight once they came back tho, so glad I didn't kill em while afk.
     
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  7. One Zero

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    I am flagged PVP 99 percent of the time and AFK 80 percent of the time. Come kill me. Take my skull. Gear damage? Thats my only risk. I'll just wear funny gear or go naked. What I believe about PVP in this specific game and community is that a big and interesting part of it is actually having players show (or not show) the "willpower" or the judgment of who and when you choose to attack or not attack. A part of the PVP "game" is actually NOT attacking every time a red name tag shows up in your sight. It would be interesting to have a day or two of whole world open PVP just to see how everyone behaves at this point in the game & community. With that said, YES... the think tank on PVP needs to open up (Winking at you Atos). Risk versus benefit needs adjusted. Current risk = gear damage. Current benefit = a slight boost to XP gain. Change this risk/benefit next release. Change it again the next release. Get it right eventually.
     
  8. FBohler

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    That's exactly why I gave up from being 100% flagged.
     
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  9. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    Dollars to Make Cents Makes Sense?
    Shed some light down this tunnel and show me the rainbow at the end of this pvp development money pit o_O or is this just to keep the few that killed few within the last week?

    It seems counter productive to our game at this point o_O The more pvp we have, the more disatified players we collect, which does and historically has done our game reviews no justice at all.

    Why we direct so much energy in a direction which has shown as little interest and great disapointment from all who have commented on it throughout our game's history, always causes me to wonder how many 10'-100s of thousands of development dollars each one of our pvp participants has cost us to have o_O We maybe should have outright paid people to pvp, because most don't seem to stay to play any pvp.

    Maybe paying the few pvp we have had not to pvp would be much cheaper o_O Everything, in every other activity our game has, had more interest than sota pvp.

    PvP players have always had a way to create their own faction wars through banding together in opposing guilds, requiring zero additional game mechanics, yet they never have had the emotional ability to organize themselves because everyone wants to be the leader. Organized PvP is a black hole in needed development cash with nothing on the other side.
    But we can still hope they will change hu?

    Tell me a nice story with a happy productive ending o_O...
    because I never see this tunnel of development despair ever having an end to it.
    [​IMG]

    Is pvp a parasite that takes more than it provides or generates in development dollars? o_O
    This has to be asked o_O Any Productive Hope in this would be nice o_O~TL~
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
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  10. Adam Crow

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    So much energy? Are you completely losing it lol. Pvp has hardly had any development time in this game. They spent all the money catering to players like you. And look where we are my friend, Farmville isn't the answer, pvp is. Sorry that's not your playstyle, but it's reality at this point.

    You underestimate how many players enjoy pvp, just look at gaming in general, most games involve pvp in the end game to keep players interested. Our pvp end game content here is non existent, they have never implemented anything meaningful for us. That is why we don't have many pvp players here. The only parasites I've seen over the years are the anti pvp crowd who directed us into this small population.
     
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  11. Nexus-6

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    Can you show us names of this games?
     
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  12. Adam Crow

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    Just do a search on Google and a lot of the most played games are pvp. I've wasted enough of my time bickering with the anti pvp crowd. You won guys, enjoy the low population.
     
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  13. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    And you think competing with actual pvp games which require pvp in everyone and at all times, that sota is going to somehow make money from this new effort in pvp development adventure? Tell me what pvp involves the alure of buying something from our coto shop? Maybe we can get a few subscriptions going from it from new players exited about our pvp? Why are factions nessesary when we have all the mechanics nessesary for two guilds to fight?
    It's not the play style, it's the amount of people that pvp requires to cause it to be development friendly. Our game just hasn't those numbers for any pvp mechanic to become enjoyable in, and muchly due to our tiny pvp community's lack of will to gather in two guilds, in what has been described as factions. So you get these two factions, what then? How is that more than the mechanics we already have? There's no risk in it and the risks we had, pvp players fought against complaining that they got no rewards from it? So we then nerfed pvp because loosing armor and weapons or ransom was too much risk for our nerf pvp fan club of few players. Now they get increased exp for flagging without the risk of anything more than would from a monster beating on them as is normal in every form of play in our game. In that way our pvp players are now coddled while having no risks at all.

    (As far as pvp not being something that suites my fancy, I was leader of "The Fellowship" (124 member Order Guild) of UO's Siege Perilous when that shard opened, where Thunderlips and myself ruled that shard for it's first year, which was back when there were many pvp players, enough to have a good pvp war, which there is not that many who can be collected in today's gaming market in our genre).

    The closest thing to a winning idea for so few players has been Asmodi's pvp fishing contest, which is the only part of our pvp that shows any hope of a need to be further developed through Catnip programing.
    There's potential in it, because there's enough people for it, yet as far as anything else pvp, all the balancing of our skills in the sake of pvp, has been development money flushed down a bottomless toilet full of sarrow.

    I see no other development in pvp changing anything, unless it's development in support of Asmodi's pvp fishing.
    But I don't see rewarding players for entering pvp as anything more than an outright giveaway from having risked nothing and encouraged no development funds from such pvp play. At least we get the potential to maybe sell few fishing rods following Asmodi's way of battle. Expand and enhance that, because it's unique! Because without unique, we cannot hope to compete in pvp gaming markets.

    That's what I mean when I ask for "tell me a nice story with a happy productive ending".

    Our genre is a very limited crowd, with an even smaller amount in those few who engage in pvp, who choose other games which are pure pvp.

    So I ask again, tell me a nice story with a happy "productive" ending...
    [​IMG]
    and I'll add this very needed stipulation: in the direction of Amodi's pvp fishing.
    ~Time Lord~
     
  14. Nexus-6

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    So... you cant show us names of this games... Ok!
     
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  15. kaeshiva

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    Yes, PvP needs some incentives in Sota, a reason to do it, rewards for doing it, and some fun PvP activities that are part of the game (not speaking of player organized events that work within the established rulesets).

    That being said, look at what does exist:

    • PvP currently has several exclusive, non-consensual, forced-open-pvp mode scenes to enjoy
    These include:
    • PvP Arena type areas in Owl's Head, Ardoris
    • Obsidian Trials zone
    • Opalis Ruins
    • Midras Ruins
    • Rhun Ruins
    • Dysborg Ruins
    • Libris Ruins
    • Kas Ruins
    • Grunvald Shardfall
    • Paladis Shardfall
    • Quel Shardfall
    • Verdantis Shardfall
    • The Fall
    • Blood Bay
    • Tartarus PvP area
    Many of these scenes have unique quests, copies of significant/boss creatures for killing (such as PvP scene Phoenix, PvP scene White Dragon, the 3 dragon sisters in Grunvald, the special named demon, the clockwork dragon in Blood Bay, and so on and so forth.). They are also the nearly exclusive source of chaos plant pollen (used in crafting various consumables). The Fall is also home to a lot of unique artifacts that only seem to drop in that zone, as well as the only reliable source of lich skull farming outside of player built dungeons.

    • PvP currently already receives a PvE experience bonus for voluntary flagging and said experience is gained regardless if any PvP actually occurs. Its just a free bonus for taking the "risk" that someone might you know, go attack a full group of flagged players laying down AoE at a xp grind spot. Sorry, but eyeroll to that being a risk.
    • Parts of the main questline, if following the most direct path, take new players through PvP areas. (Yes yes, I know, there's a long cumbersome workaround that no new player could ever be expected to know about to avoid the PvP zone)
    • The Obsidian Trials special rewards including unique emotes/titles and such was a good idea, but poorly implemented in that only the supreme victor got anything worth getting and everyone else got nothing. Gave no reason for people to try unless they could be top dog so interest waned pretty quickly. It also was never really fully functional - teleporters bug out, poison zone wall killed you from miles away, etc.
    In short, Sota has PvP. It has various areas that force it, that are lore significant, visually distinctive, and along the "main path" and there are unique commodities and drops that are either exclusive to, or much easier to obtain from, PvP scenes. PvP inclined players can flag up at will, and PvP all day long, to their hearts content, with each other in absolutely every scene in the game, according to their choice whether they want to deal with the ransom system or not. Its also worth noting that the public API can "detect" player vs. player activity and there were people who actually had notifications sent to their phone if PvP was happening. It sometimes resulted in the disappointing arrival at my house where I was killing my alt over and over to make goblets out of her skull, but, yeah :x

    And yet despite all of the above, this was not "enough." PvPers have been complaining for years, with complaints ranging from constructive, sensible, viable suggestions all the way to "we want full loot open pk/griefing everywhere!!!" and the constant desire for more/faster/better loot and experience / PvE progression for PvPers. The problem is a) we already have this, if you turn it around, everyone who chooses not to flag PvP is essentially getting an experience penalty and b) there is no reason whatsoever why PvP activity should progress PvE objectives/goals.

    If you want to kill other players, that's fine - but why should you get more experience and resources for it? If you want experience and resources, if those are your goals, then go grind xp or go mining/harvesting/whatever. If you want to PvP, go PvP. My problem with threads like this is that (some) PvPers seem to want everything handed to them because they are PvPers, and want PvP to be the vehicle to obtaining PvE rewards. Except as we've seen time and time again, doing this not only further alienates PvE players who would rather not deal with all the hassle that PvP brings, but it -still- doesn't make the PvP players happy, either.

    Forcing people to "flag up" for a PvE goal does not get more people into PvP, it doesn't generate more interest in PvP. They are just going to get in, do their thing, get out, and never visit the scene again. Getting killed by some bored player who can 2-shot you (or worse, a roving grief party) while you're trying to do whatever it is you're trying to do (quest, harvest, etc) is a pretty big reason to never bother going to said place again unless you absolutely have to and actually probably does more to discourage PvP than anything else. And adding more bonuses for being flagged is the same deal - people aren't going to be like "Oh, hey, I like PvP now!" its just, "I'm willing to be put up with being griefed/ganked/harassed because the exp bonus is good". Over time, this does nothing to generate interest in meaningful PvP, all it does is give PvPers more "victims" in the short term and hurts player retention on the whole.

    What we should be trying to do is create meaningful pvp
    This is NOT: killing players who aren't interested, who are only flagged for PvE reasons or in these scenes trying to quest/get the unique stuff there
    No matter how big you make the bonus, if people are flagging up to get "more exp" or "stuff" they are not flagging because they want to engage.
    We should focus on creating a system that is interesting, fun, and something people want to do.

    This is difficult to do. The biggest barrier (at least in the context of Sota) in my opinion is our class/skill system. There's a good related write up on this posted yesterday I believe about skill capping.

    First Problem: Skill System Balance
    Skills aren't balanced. Some things are silly strong in PvP but repeated "balancing efforts" usually screw up the PvE/levelling experience.
    Proposed Solution: Some sort of PvP skill capping or, as many games have done, make skill calculations work differently against players so they can be balanced indepedently.

    Second Problem: Skill Exclusivity
    Players can choose two specialization and these are locked in without tedious and costly unlearn/relearn process.
    Proposed solution: Allow multiple load-outs. You can still only use two specializations at once, but allow players to invest experience into various builds and "enable" them by some means (such as at the oracle). This would allow people to actually create and effective PvP build without crippling their character for other activities. Its a barrier to PvP for a lot of us who simply aren't built for it and don't do it often enough to change our entire build for it.

    Third Problem: Lack of Incentives
    I put this here not because there are no incentives, but because they are the wrong sort of incentives. Pvp doesn't do anything to further the interest of more PvP.
    Proposed Solution: Having some sort of PvP experience, PvP skill tree (which includes all skills/passives/etc. that effect PvP ONLY), a title/rank/progression system for PvP, a leaderboard, etc. are all examples of incentives that can be added to PvP without making it feel like you're being punished for not being interested. Special cosmetic things earned from PvPing, special furniture/trophies/titles/emotes, PvP 3-day blessings that increase damage against players, and so on. Rewards from PvP should either showcase your PvP prowess (ranking) or further/improve your pvp goals. What about special materials/components that can be used in crafting to craft gear with bonus damage/defense/etc. against other players? Special gems with PvP related effects that can only be gotten by grinding the skulls of one's enemies. Special food crafted from dead player parts, etc.

    Fourth Problem: Lack of Activities
    At the moment, other than the Obsidian Trial, there's no organized PvP activity within the game itself (not talking about player run activities).
    Proposed Solution:
    Capture the Whatever, Siege the Whatever, team vs. team matched events, all of which could award "pvp exp" as per the above, and some sort of pvp currency/tokens.
    The key here is that you need to award something to the losers, or nobody will show up to get stomped repeatedly by the elite PvPers for no reward. Any sort of event/activity like this should award some of the "currency" or whatever to everyone who participated, scaled perhaps based on damage they did or walls they repaired or whatnot, and if their "team" wins then that gets doubled (or whatever). Getting nothing whatsoever for losing is the biggest barrier to getting new blood interested. Worse, is just going in and wasting your time, beating up your gear, and having nothing to show for it (actually losing something by participating). If I know that I'm new, or low level, and probably can't do much and will probably get my ass kicked, but I can still kinda sorta work my way up, getting rewards more slowly, there's still a reason for me to participate. If I just go, and get 1 shot repeatedly and get nothing for it, I will find something better to do with my time. This was the biggest problem with the implementation of Obsidian Trial - there was no point going if you didn't think you could be supreme victor which obviously, isn't most people.

    And yes - guild vs. guild battles! If everyone wants to do it - have at it. We need more guild tools I think to make this really workable, since the big problem at the moment is not everyone in a big guild is going to be interested which usually means the guild leader isn't going to force it on people. Some way to have people set themselves up as combatants or noncombatants for the duration of the event is needed.

    Fifth Problem: No Cause to Fight for
    This is where factions would come in. I like the idea of aligning to existing archetypes (kobolds, elves, obsidian cultists ..perhaps others?). But there's no reason to limit this just to PvP. This is one of the few things that New World got right imo, was allowing faction progression through either PvE OR PvP tasks, with the PvP tasks giving more currency/faction/reward due to their increased risk.

    In conclusion,

    Most PvE players don't begrudge PvPers "their stuff" as long as it doesn't interfere with what they're trying to do, or make them feel like they are missing out on something because they don't want to do PvP. And even players who maybe aren't as interested in PvP could be enticed to try some of the team event sort of stuff, as long as there is something to show for it in the likely event that they will just get roflstomp facerolled. In my decades of gaming, Sota is the ONLY game in which I have actively and completely avoided PvP, because the way it is implemented is all loss, no gain, which for me, means no point. I get no pleasure out of killing someone lower level than me who is trying to just go about their business. I get even less pleasure being ganked by someone I have zero chance against (or several someones who are partied up looking for prey.). I DO enjoy a good team vs team match, or a well matched duel to try things out, or zone control battles such as in the old DaoC (or in ESO) which had various keeps/castles to capture and defend, with various other mini objectives/quests to complete in the PvP scene that furthered your realm/pvp level. I think these are the sorts of things we should focus on, instead of just trying to placate the PvP community by giving them a bigger PvE goody-bag. That's not going to solve anything.
     
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  16. Time Lord

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    Let me explain what I mean when I say "unique", because if it's unique is the only way we can compete with other games:

    Most of our problems when contending to be unique is that we have, "a computer programer mind that is trying to make games or toys", instead of being game and toy makers who have the ability to computer program.

    Keep it simple and stupid...
    For example: If a player is pvp flagged, then they are to be given the ability to catch (for lack of a better name), "the wonder fish". The wonder fish acts the same and lasts the same as an obsidian potion when eaten, yet grants the player X2Exp for it's durration of effect. To increase the chances of catching the wonder fish, the player must kill other pvp players from different accounts without loosing a single battle, otherwise they have a very slim chance of catching a wonder fish, no matter their fishing ability.

    Such a simple game provides motive and very rewarding outcome, which is well suited for our amount of pvp players. If a player must kill other players from other different accounts each time to increase their fishing chances, this removes exploits in any notable way.

    1% no kills
    3% first kill
    4%
    5%
    8%
    10%
    15%
    25%

    Yet for the looser of any fight, which includes being killed by monsters, they loose the ability of catching the wonder fish, or reduced back to 1% levels of chances, with an upward chance ability greatly deminished in further pvp kills.

    Only one wonder fish up for catching each week/month/whatever, means that it could be caught by a player with less chances.

    We do not have any "war party" amounts of pvp players, so anything pvp must be geared for solo pvp.

    If X2Exp is found to be not enough incentive, then increasing it to X3Exp or even higher is then not a problem.

    That's "unique", simple, motivating and requires very little programing and few players to participate.

    This would cause everyone flagged pvp to want to kill every other pvp player on sight.

    [​IMG]
    ~Time Lord~
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
  17. Adam Crow

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    Searched video games most active players - you're welcome!

    1. Pubg 100 mil+
    2. Minecraft 95 mil+
    3. Apex legends 50 mil
    4. Fortnite 45 mil
    5. Cs global offensive 35 mil
    6. Hearthstone 30 mil
    7. League of legends 27 mil
    8. CoD 15 mil
    9. Among us 8 mil
    10. CoD war zone 5 mil

    Lots of active players in the pvp community.
     
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  18. kaeshiva

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    Sorry but no, no no no, and no again to giving PvP flagged players a "double exp button" (or any other "PvE" reward).

    First, it doesn't make sense, since PvP and PvE are completely different activities.
    Secondly, it will do nothing whatsoever to encourage people to flag up and actually want to PvP: your best case outcome is people will flag to get the "wonder fish" and open themselves up to unwanted grief (which they grudgingly put up with.) That's best case. They don't enjoy / aren't interested in and aren't going to bother with PvP any more than they ever did, they're just willing to suffer the indignity of being killed so they can get their wonder fish.

    Because its not solving the fundamental problem its just saying "we know PvP system is broken/boring/not fit for purpose, here have some PvE candy." Then the people who don't care about PvP at all, who are HERE for the PvE, are like ...hey, where's our candy? Why should we have to PvP to get the PvE candy? And that takes you toward less "best case" outcomes none of which are good for player retention or for the game as a whole. Worst case scenario, if Sota becomes a game where "you must be PvP flagged, or your entire levelling experience is handicapped" there's a lot of people out there who would simply give it a complete pass. I'm one of them.

    Put another way - I don't like spinach. Forcing me to eat spinach is never going to make me enjoy spinach. I might get used to it. I might put up with it because I have to force this spinach down so I can eat something else on the menu. You could even offer to pay me to eat the spinach but I'm still not going to enjoy the spinach. Unless you make the spinach more appetising, this is not going to change.

    PvP has its place, and can be fun, but over incentivizing it to this point is pretty much the same as making it obligatory. And non-consensual PvP just isn't going to fly here, unless you want to alienate a good chunk of the longstanding PvE playerbase in the hopes that you "might" attract PvPers. But when they get here and see the imbalances in the skill system, the amount of PvE grind required, etc, etc, and lack of any pvp progression/activities, what would make them stay?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
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  19. Adam Crow

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    Other than Grunvald dragons the spawn rates for all the boss mobs in the pvp zones it isn't even worth having them there. You can go hours without seeing any of them. The fall is a great pvp scene for sure, so not complaining about that at all.

    How many releases was this unplayable because of the ankh issue?

    Yes please!

    And I agree with just about everything you said here. No easy solution, but it would be nice to at least see some attempt at meaningful pvp.
     
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  20. Time Lord

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    We both know there are thousands of pages of countless pvp subjects with players that will never agree on anything. It's the nature of our modern gamers attitudes towards one another. This along with countless other threads will never produce anything all could agree on, because the world currently only sees and us and a them instead of any we. We here are all looking to be apeased, yet the we that will increase funding for our game doesn't play our game and the increased exp in anything which is open to everyone will always be seen as a they got something why didn't I, coming from players who's characters have long past their prime in building power difference.

    As stated, it's a black hole of a money pit with no funding gains for our game.
    ~Time Lord~