Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Tiberius Theron, Mar 16, 2015.
There is more chance of Elvis rising the dead for a world comeback tour.
Its not just a matter of technical challenge its also a matter of ego too.
Windows 8 Syndrome is my belief. Attempting to differentiate Windows 8 removed a feature, the Start Button for no other reason than an attempt to innovate.
Randomly assigning availability of skills in an MMO hotbar is akin to removing the Start Button. Why ruin something that just works?
I fail to see enough of an improvement by randomizing skills. In fact immersion is negatively impacted when you have to focus on the hotbar.
Please make this simple no random skills as the default UI. Perhaps make combo options random?
Also make combat more responsive and fluid.
They should focus less on randomizing input and more on making the skills themselves interesting. Right now, there are no counters or blocks; other than "hit guy in face with spell/stick" you have "increase DR for one hit". That's all I'm really seeing from the skills so far, and it isn't just from one skill tree; it's the go-to skill definitions for just about every glyph in the game. Not only is it boring, but that DR buff for one hit is kinda' pointless when even stacking the ability doesn't give you enough DR to cancel out the nuke stack you get hit with, and which you could have used instead.
It's all very blah.
The random aspect of the combat system has its point, but the actual game mechanic is wrong.
I cant understand this slot machine system tbh, is not fun at all, I stopped playing this game due to this .
Ignore this post. I leave it up only context as to why I came to the conclusion the deck system needs to be dropped.
after watching the R16 dev chat video where Chris says that there will be no auto stack and he said there will be no permanent glyphs.... I have to admit this combat system is never going to truly be great because it takes too much of our attention when it comes to stacking and combos.
What is NOT wrong with the combat system:
IT IS NOT RANDOM.
---I can definitely stack my deck and I know for certain that I will get the glyphs I need when I need them.
What is really wrong with the combat system:
IT DOES FORCE US TO WATCH THE TOOL BAR FAR TOO MUCH, AND COMBINE AND CREATE COMBOS
---The system as it stands right now requires too much attention. If it had an auto stack maybe it wouldn't be such an issue. Although if auto stacking and permanence don't work with this system, then maybe this system really won't work.
I Liked it in R8 (no stacking and no combos), and I've tolerated it the past few releases because I kept hoping they were going to continue working on it. The reason I do not like it as much as R8 is due to the stacking and combos. I cannot stand stacking the skills and then have them all disappear over time.
STATIC DECK IS NOT A SATISFACTORY ALTERNATIVE BECAUSE IF WE WANT TO MAXIMIZE OUR POTENTIAL WE MUST USE THE DECK SYSTEM IN SOTA (That's the way it is now)
---The deck system is designed so that it is the ultimate way to compete in combat. It is superior to the static toobar as far as potential offensive power.
---So really if we want to maximize our potential we need to use the deck system.
Since the deck system is stuck this way I cannot defend it. I will say that it is not random like some of the players that don't know what their are talking about claim, but as one who does use the deck system I can say that it is medocre at best. The combat system is important and by it many will either pass or try this game.
HERE IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS COMBAT SYSTEM IN A NUTSHELL
--- Although it is better than it was in R11, I am very sad to say that while this current combat system does function, the feeling I get with it is that it gets in our way, and I have to micromanage too much. I believed there was potential but I cannot stand behind this without more automation (auto stack, etc), because of the micromanaging of our toolbars.
---Who cares if we can get the toolbar we want? Let us auto stack? If not then let us have the icons to place all over our board. Cool-downs are not necessary because focus is the limiting factor. Let us use any skill we want at any time. If we cannot manipulate the deck system then ditch it completely, and give us as much toolbar space we need so that we can place ALL of our skills on a toolbar at our disposal at ANYTIME at ANY PLACE.
No need for a combat and a non combat toolbar, just let us use our skills.
Do not tell me that this will not work as well as I am thinking, I know it works. That's what we did in UO and it worked fine, it also works fine in Shroud when we have a toolbar full of the skills we need. Instead of a cooldown create an increasing focus penalty for people who use the same skill in rapid succession. This functions like a cool down by causing people to choose to rotate their skills, but the player still has the option to use any skill at any time.
If somebody shoots 10 fireballs in rapid succession then increase the focus penalty. If somebody goes crazy and starts attacking wildly they get tired faster... so if somebody attacks over and over and over with the same skill then start increasing the focus penalty until they start attacking at a more sensible pace. MMA fighters, boxers, judo, jui-jitsu, and wrestlers get gassed if they come out doing every move they know in rapid succession. Give people the freedom to get gassed instead of using an unrealistic cooldown. Give people the freedom to use their skills.
EDIT: on second thought Just go with the static toolbar with the cooldowns. Cut out the deck system all together. At this point who needs to bother tweeking this anymore because it is going to remain annoying? We tried it, and it wasn't a bad idea because it functions, but it is annoying and gets in our way. ANNOYING TRUMPS FUNCTION
No need to come up with something new, just give us access to all our skills. No harm done just drop the feature and give everybody the same static toolbar system.
To save time and effort just remove the deck system entirely, and let us all use the same exact static toolbar system with cooldowns. Keep it simple and focus on developing the rest of the game. Consider combat done and move on.
Cut your losses and move forward. Sure you guys spent massive manhours working on this deck system, but there is no such thing as being pot committed. Just use the static toolbar because it has been proven to work.
I have no real issue with the combat system, but after reading this thread I did come up with a couple ideas for changes I'd like to put out there and see what people think:
1: what if while the deck system is drawing cards for you, rather than placing them in a row in the order they are pulled left to right, they pop up on areas of your hot bar according to the color/type of glyph? So, 1-3 are reserved for normal attack glyphs, 4-6 for support glyphs, and so on. They still come up at random, but come up in their spots. Even better if we could assign colors to numbers. So if you want to be able to see more attack glyphs at once, you can assign 1-5 rather than 1-3. Or you could assign red to 1-4, yellow to 3-6, blue to 5-7, etc. Again, it would not change the way/order cards are currently dealt, just where they are placed when they are dealt.
I would place combos above the hot bar, usable once created by <shift>1-5.
2: make stacked glyphs, once they are created, stay on the hot bar until you use them or dismiss them. This should alleviate the frustration of building them up only to have them disappear.
One more point and this is a big one.
If the concern is if we go with the static toolbar then it looks too much like every other game, then we need to see how many people would buy this game because they are enticed by the combat system minus the people who avoid the game because of the combat system.
The logical conclusion is obvious if one looks at it from this perspective.
The combat system has been controversial at best. It is actually something heavily argued in our forums and the steam forums, and I presume will continue to be controversial (with few defenders).
If the story is great then it should offset any dissatisfaction from those who write a review stating the game's combat is the same boring static toolbar. Every game has complainers reviewing them. I tend to think that people would be willing to live with a review like that, BUT a negative review that says the combat system is worse than normal because they tried some radical thing that nobody likes... Now that review is legit and people will pause when they read that.
Be honest regarding this combat system. If you keep going forward with this system expecting different results from the critics, then that is the definition of crazy.
At best there is about 50/50 support and those who do support it are not passionate about it. While those who are against are passionately against it.
Then you can "pre-cast" nukes and just dump when you need 'em. Just gotta' stay in warmode the whole time, which is easy to do in areas where you're expecting a fight.
That just means if you end up pulling a bunch of attack cards you don't need or don't want, you're still right clicking them waiting for the good ones to stack. Great if you get all the attacks you needed to 5-stack straight up, a pain if you gotta' right-click 'em away, then wait for them to redraw while your support slots are filling up. What happens if a support card is drawn when all support slots are full? Do they pop up in the attack slots? Then it defeats the system. Do they "kick" other support glyphs in the hand? Do they do it faster than normal? Do you have to wait for those cards to get into the hand before they draw attack cards? If you don't use the support glyphs or they're all stacked as in suggestion 2, do you not have access to attack cards in the queue to be drawn until you use those support cards and the support cards on standby can enter the deck?
It's an add-on to make a sloppy system color-coded, but it's still just a sloppy system.
I can agree with everything you said except this. If I lay in ambush for someone and, when I go to jump them, don't have the attack card I need because I haven't drawn it yet, it's random. If I go to jump him with an attack card but didn't draw enough of the other attack cards to stack it to make the ambush worthwhile, it's random. When I go to jump the guy with the appropriate attack cards, stacked accordingly, and then don't have another attack card ready to follow up that I need, that's random. When I go to jump the guy from ambush, and by the time I reach him the damn card drops and now I have to wait for the card to get back into my hand, it's random.
If I'm attacked from an ambush and I don't have a defensive/counter (don't exist yet, but LET'S HOPE *CHEERS*) popping up to react, even though my twitch skills are ready to react, that's random. If my counter/defense is ready and I use it, but I can't press the advantage and counter attack because the ability isn't available since I haven't drawn it yet, that's random.
You can increase your odds, and devote a ton of precious skill points in order to do so, but nothing more. Outside of a locked hotbar, you cannot guarantee at any given moment you will have a certain card ready to go. By definition, that's random.
That's fine. Let's cut out the details and see where we do agree.
Do you agree that it is too late to make tweaks to this system because those who are against it are passionately against it, therefore they ought to scrap the deck and make the rest of the game better?
I think this is all that matters or makes sense anymore. Is the deck system going to hinder or help this game... An honest and rational person knowing what we know today ought to come to the conclusion that the deck system is obstructing the goal at this point.
Focus doesn't regenerate, nor health if you stay in war-mode. I would also make stacking lock away a portion of focus until the stack is used, so the more glyphs you have stacked, the less focus you have available. Also, changing your target should clear out regular attack stacks. And perhaps skills that don't need a target, like AoE should still time out their stacks.
Easy answer. If support slots are full then a new drawn support card can't be placed, it is like missing a turn. If an attack card is pulled next, and there is room for it, it is placed. If you find yourself waiting too long for cards you want to show up, that's a good clue you need to change out the cards in your deck, or reassign slots to match what is being drawn more regularly.
Well for combat, I don't necessarily dislike a lot of the concept of the glyph system, but I do dislike the current in game presentation of that concept. The hotbar sitting there for you to click on although it will get tweaked does not sit well with me for some reason. I feel it is a bit on the cheap looking side and would like to see it revamped to represent the coolness of the idea of the glyph system. So while I do not exactly find what I am looking for I will post some pictures for inspiration
The deck system has to go last month. Combat is one of the major components of the game, doubly so when you consider this is also meant to be played single-player. Sorry, guys, but people who are looking for a single player game don't care that you have a house and that you helped name the two streets that intersect outside of it. Hell, most people playing multi-player probably don't care, either.
The rest of the skill system holds infinite potential for creative templates, but the deck system actually works against it by forcing players to take up certain skills just to have a functioning UI. That's not just annoying, it's offensive to paying customers. Consider that this is made by Lord British himself, and dare I say it's a career ender for him (he's already on his last straw with a lot of gamers) if this falls flat on its face.
I think everything else needs to be put on hold, skills need to be fleshed out and fully released, and an easily accessible combat system needs to be created. To keep the game's combat from being boring, it needs to have interesting, interactive skills and engaging, reactive combat. This will help PvM (engaging monster AI with unique skills to counter and use against them) as well as PvP (skill-based PvP where using complex templates opens up a world of possibilities on the battlefield).
I don't need Focus after I've nuked and killed you. If I have enough to cast the nukes as necessary (which I will because stacks cost less Focus), then putting that Focus "on hold" does nothing to deter my strategy. After you're dead, then I can regen that stuff while I'm looting your corpse.
And if I swap targets, it clears out regular attack stacks? So if I'm in the middle of a fight, and switch to engage another target with my friend to help him, I suddenly don't have that attack?
So the only thing it does is slightly organize your glyphs. However, if you aren't getting glyphs you need, it could be because they're auto-discarding in a queue somewhere, which means you have to manage that specific color-coded area more thoroughly, but you're still managing your hotbar. Additionally, with none of your slots locked by type, you can at least see what glyphs are coming in to maximize your next moves.
All of which does nothing to alleviate the biggest issue that nearly everyone is having a problem with: it's immersion breaking and distracting. Whether you love it or hate it, you focus on it more than the action itself. You have to be the very nature of the hotbar. You might have gotten good at it, but it doesn't change the fact you are still watching it keenly.
The only option I see with it is linking keys to specific abilities, with the cards showing whether or not they're available and auto-stacking cards as they come up (or making it a Ctrl+hotkey button to stack them). This way the input isn't random. But the combat still remains random, waiting for when an ability is available, as well as be utterly boring in the depth that it provides (or rather, doesn't provide at all).
I get so frustrated with people saying the solution to having to focus on looking at the hotbar is to make the task bar cover the whole action by placing it around the player. I honestly ask why did they bother hiring fantastic artists like Stephen when no one is going to be looking at it because either your so focused on your hotbar OR they plaster the hotbar OVER the art.
I feel I need to make the same points again and again
1) I was unbeliably happy when I found Guitar Hero Metallica because I LOVE Metallica and to find out when I got home that they actually did motion capture for it..... I cant even describe how happy I was. And then I played it. Now I suck at Guitar Hero in general, best I have ever done is MAYBE medium but that's not the point, the game was great, the songs awesome and I am really happy I bought it but the motion capture was WASTED because I never once saw it, they could have been stick figures for all I saw of them. Why? they are right there, because I never got to take my eyes off the bottom of the screen, I had to watch the little flashing lights the whole time to see which I had to press next. Now for guitar hero this just makes me sad because I knew what I was in for, for SotA to go down the same path makes me angry, its an RPG, the point is to get lost in the world, not to stare at the bottom of the screen the whole time.
2) we can't be like wow, we have to innovate.
WHY do you think that's a traditional system? BECAUSE IT WORKS, its intuitive, the player doesn't have to think about it.
What games (RPGs at least, there are some types of games which this doesn't necessarily apply) SHOULD be aiming for is to get as close as possible to a person thinking something and it happening. Forget VR, its thought capture which will make games fantastic, getting rid of clunky keyboards and removing the barriers between the story and the player. Anyway would ANYONE accept an FPS randomly changing the fire button? No, they even have basiclly the same key layout to each other so that a player can pick up the game and get straight into it with a minimum of fuss
This is what happens when you screw with the controls instead of leaving them alone and "innovating" in the things which matter, like the story. You end up with your reviews being focused on your useless controls rather than the meat of the game
Anyway at this point I don't know why I bother any more, no one is going to admit they were wrong, I might as well go back and boot up a game I WANT to play like Mass Effect, games which as soon as I finish them I want to jump back in and start up again
I wouldn't say I am against the current deck system, but I wouldn't say I am one of its defenders either. I can handle it the way it is, but I think Portalarium's combat designers could have been well served clocking some field time in The Secret World pre-EPE (Enhanced Player Experience). I used to fiercely love playing TSW. (TSW used, guess what: A deck system) Unfortunately, to me, TSW:EPE is like, the second coming of SWG:NGE
Not bothered logging in this month so far. They said it's something they will look at, so I am hopeful, but I see no reason to play until I think I'd have fun doing so.
Yeah but the issue here is that Metalica's guitar rifs are quite advanced. That version of Guitar Hero should have been called Guitar Hero Ultra Hard Edition. That's the problem.
Well, I disagree about combat feeling random and boring. This reminds me of my first time playing a roleplaying game on my Sega Master System back in 1986. Before it, I had only played action-arcade games, and I was like, "What the h3!! This game sucks!"
But months later I picked it up again and realized the thinking, and strategy involved was really fun to learn and master, and it quickly became my favorite game for many many years.
The glyph combat may be a different play style than many expected or are accustomed to, but it really is strategic/not random, and quite fun!
I definitely feel the system is good, and can be enjoyed. Because of the unusual play style however, I feel in-game tutorials/tips and hints may prove important to get people into it so it can be appreciated.
are you passionate about this? I mean would you log on the steam forums just to defend the Shroud of the Avatar combat system?
Think about that a moment. Many of us would defend SotA because we pledged and we believe in the project and the devs. However do you really feel so passionate about the deck combat system that you would go on the steam forums and defend with conviction?
I mention this because I had to come to that conclusion myself. I had to stop defending this system in its current state a few months back because I didn't see any progress being made to resolve the annoyances I was having with the stacking and combining. I have remained rather silent till I watched this video.
I don't want to play candy crush to fight an opponent in Shroud. Really that's what it ends up being if we have to be stratigic with the combat bar. No joke.
The deck system ought to facilitate combat, it should neither be fun nor strategic. It ought to just facilitate combat and let the strategy be you vs your opponent, NOT you trying to set up your bar right. This type of philosophy bothers me. Chris mentioned something about increasing the strategy of the deck system. This bothers me.
EDIT: Yes I do still believe in this project, and think the devs are good. I don't agree with the direction of making the deck system more strategic. It is time to drop this system NOW.
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