The major problems with the combat system.

No.

What I was saying is that I think there should be a counter spell that debuff's a player so that if they try to use Blink (or some other form of teleportation) they get rooted instead. If they don't try to use Blink (or some other form of teleportation) then they get some kind of buff (as a poison pill for using this debuff counter spell). There may be a way to make that design better, but what I'm describing is a hell of lot more sophisticated than "the counter for blink is blink".

 

I just skimmed this conversation, but to me a lot of the fixes could be simply increasing the cool down on some of these utility skills.

Mages shouldn't be able to consistently blink and of course warriors shouldn't be able to trip someone over and over. These seem like easy fixes.

What is always concerning with this team though is when they Nerf something they tend to Nerf it into the ground. Exhibit A taming...

 

AHHHH ok, sorry missunderstood what you were trying to say, hmmmmm, you know what, I actually like that idea, gives melee people a better chance. Even though its to my advantage not to have something like that, objectively, it does bring more balance between melee and ranged, and I have been a long time advocate to bring more balance between melee and ranged, just like its to my advantage to have the way attunement being def for spells, objectively, I would like to see that changed as well.

 

Yes, they could limit some of these abilities, but then it begs the question if they're still worth having in your limited deck size? As for nerfing things into the ground, that's happened from time to time (taming being one example) but when don't the players exploit things into the ground? It's kind of a double edged sword.

 

I recall pumping many a mob/boss in WoW as a Warlock. Tick...tick...tick...BOOM (aka "Pump"). Just kidding around. Off-topic. LOL

 

Thats a joke. Sounds like you wont a counter for every skill and that means also you would need a counter for the counter and a counter for the counter counter and soon we have a nonsense childish battle system impossible to balance. What if Chris would add a counter into the Sun tree but you dont wont to use Sun magic because it does not fit your playstyle, should he add then a counter in every skill tree?
Every build, no matter what, should have his strenght and weak points. Learn to play against different problems and try to avoid it. If you dont want to use special armor or skills, work more with consumables and player skill.

 

They can't nerf us. Casuals are always hit the hardest with a nerf. Thats just basic.

Totally like the ideas. I always wanted limit on the deck system.. also attunement calculated out of the skills in deck etc etc with armor attunement as a plus. Needs a lot of rebalance though as a lot of schools are lacking and some are just not working right.

 

So hmm. If everything warrants counters then we make it necessary to make more choices. More choices makes combat more complex. More complexity favors minmaxers and puts a higher threshold until one can join PvP. Higher threshold means you need to grind more before joining PvP. Meaning less players wanting to join PvP.
Mmkay?

Judging on newcomers and forum comments here and elsewhere lots of folks thinks the skill/combat system already is too complex.
Also judging by how many quickly remove the PvP flag after their first run in with a good player.

Then I'd say that suggestions like these need to figure out how to implement such while at the same time reducing complexity.

For instance fight games back in the day had three approaches to 'defense'.
1 - a counter for each, so high attacks needed high blocks, low attacks needed low blocks etc
2 - a single counter, so one command would result in several different blocks
3 - mobility and counter attacks, so timing a quick attack against a slow, stepping out etc

You can check out the e-sport tournament scene to see which school won.

 

Jep, i'm done and nearly all "normal" gamers are done with pvp.
Sad but true it's only for...
Players who minmax everything and dont care for RP in a RPG.
... but was never different.
So sad that not even R.G. can make a good mmo RPG what also fit for PvP.
It only caters to a special group of gamers, but seems to be the majority.
Yes sure, it is the majority.
I am the minority, the Roleplayer who is laughed at, who is not playing serious enough etc.. blabla.

Have Fun Guys.

@Lord British it's bullshit, sorry, but this is no rpg if we talk about pvp, it's just the same crap we get for over 20 years now.
Max out, have no weakness, aimed to own them all.

If someday one makes a good RPG with MMO features without that level, progress, effort (grinding time) = reward **** tell me.

You are locking your audience for cool PvP Stories out and instead cater only to mass Killer pk 's with the mindset of a exploiter.

 

Since there seems to be no intrest in adressing the issue except for snarky comments from devs and players alike, I'll be taking a step back. Do hope this turns around to something more to my taste but with the development I am seeing I will remain sceptical.

 

Yes, better so, i wont stop playing the game because if that, but it's sure a bummer and i thought or hoped @Lord British could or would do it better and more rpg'ish.
Most games have Limits, have rulesets and whatnot.
This Skillsystem favors those players who like to be everything and skill everything and dont care for a specific role, not only because they just have not the time and will to skill everything, but because they believe that variance and weaknesses are VERY important for Roleplayers and so for RPG's.
I cannot often enough say how poor it is to sell a RPG where when it comes to PvP what is great caters only those players that dont Roleplay and instead min max everything.
Sandboxes need also Limits and Rules.

The average Gamer will never ever have more then 5 GM or maybe 10.

I doubt I ever have more.
When i have 10 GMS my decay would be huge and if to get back the XP means kill 10 times the Dragon i just lol, take the hit and roleplay further.

PvP needs Caps!!!
Hardcaps, diametral effects or even locks, decks need Limits, buffs need diametral locks or more significant debuff.

I tell you something.
Since day one i studied the Skilltrees and thought of building this or that, but i allways had something in my mind.
And i began to do many compromises.
Skilled opposite Trees, leave my RP Route more abd more.
I got better, i was able to do better in general, but my RP immersion need to make more and more compromise.
I am artificially constructing Ideas how or why an icemage used this or that...
But i have a plan now.

I once learned some Earth Spells and then discard and unkearn it again to 40, because was just not my style.
Ice Sun is a fun combination, even with some Air and Moon, but for pve it's just playing around with mobs. It's better to concentrate on less schools, is not only more effective, because you can pimp these school with gear, but also feels more roleplayish.
I just dont want to be the same Avatar as everybody else.
That's the problem of the MMO part of this game. It is none.
The PoTs and whatnot let you think this. But it is not and pvp is so poor and artificially constructed in this game, it's not worth it.
Sad for the beautiful scenes.
Just for PKs leveling up, collecting oc and thats it.

I will discard Sun now and concentrate on less schools, i want my role back, i want my authenticity back and roleplay and immerse.

Go to hell with this bullshit pvp skillsystem crap only for powergamers. Hardcore pk refusing to limit themself, to RP something and instead come up with a bad picture of a mage in chain, wielding 2 chopsticks and look like a young fool suffering Hybris.
Done with that!

I go on roleplaying and try to play this as an RPG again and dont turn it into a achieving system only.

Have Fun - Stun o7

 

@Stundorn : player vs player is competitive by nature. As long as two people are fighting each other in a duel, they have to "min-max" things in order to win. And that's very compliant to any form of reality. Two decades ago, I learnt how to handle a sword, in real life (yes, don't laugh , I even got a medal... in a municipal challenge). And I observed that the most successful swordmen were the most treacherous. Role play is just a matter of mimicing the reality. @Lord British is not in fault here. We only miss the "RvR"/real guild war thing.

In my opinion. The issue you and some other like me have is not about the min-max process. It's about that one can learn every skill in SotA and use every school to be stronger than you. And as the learning curve is exponential (as it SHOULD be), specialization is not very appealing. Our best interest is to get every passive and attunement to a decent level. Therefore, you have to pick up skills in almost every school/tree to be competitive, yourself.

For exemple : You can be a pure swordman but your chances against a firemage or a necromancer will not be optimal as long as you don't have any resistance to their spells. You can be a pure archer but you will be weaker than an archer who is using dash or blink. And so on... Also some mages will learn experience faster than you because they have great area of effect spells affecting up to a dozen of creatures (yes @Rada Torment , you were right from the beginning)...

That's a concern. And that's not only a problem in pvp. We can see that wizardry is everywhere when only few NPCs use spells and when some players don't like it. I don't know what the devs think about that. In my point of view, it's something that I don't understand very well. The system is complicated and not always balanced toward those who want to concentrate on one or two skill trees.

That's why people like @Mac2 keep answering that you don't have to limit yourself. Translation : you don't have much choices, you have to be a master of all trades. I could make a mistake but I think that even @Sara Dreygon had to learn basic magic spells like celestial blessing. And when I wanted to be a pure archer myself, I now have more than 600 points in each magic school because it proved to be more convenient.

 

problem is way way too many skills give you passive benefits and there is no downside aka you "have" to learn them. some people like it some dont, pointless to argue about since it's only about preference. I MUCH prefer a hard cap system or some very game changing adjustments to the system we have now(passives being tied to the skills you have equipped only) but to each their own.
I recommend the thread be closed @Berek but thank you for letting it rampage this far

 

If we talk about RPG it's just BS @Hornpipe
I know well all the mechanics.
About AoE and many more.

About RPG it is big Bullshit, sorry.
That's not RPG if you are encouraged to Master everything.

I'm an Aikidoka for many years, i did alsoearn Kashima Shin Ryu Kenjutsu.
I reality i wouldnt have profit of additionally learning Karate or BJJ.
But i did also for a short time.
That's has nothing to do with reality.
I want play... Roleplay a game, argue with real fighting is not proper and way to far away from what i have learned in martial arts.

I'm out dont care until things change to a Roleplaygame if we talk about pvp.

 

You seems to use "role play" as if the definition was your own property.

Urban dictionary :

To act and speak as if you are the character you're portraying. To roleplay is as much about what not to say as what TO say. It means to keep your speech in the context of the setting in which your character (or avatar) exists. Context can be defined as both time and place.

As long as this definition is right, and I think it's right, the context is the game that the devs are creating right now. The current system, the scenes, the skills progression and interaction is the context. Do you agree ? If you do, roleplaying is acting like your character would do in this context. Not acting like he would do if specialization was a viable option (like I think it is but insufficiently).

When I heard you say that learning all skills is a problem for the RP side of the game, I thought that you were the one who was opposing the game to the reality. That's why I answered the way I did.

You want specialization to have a place in this game. And I agree with you on this one.

If it must be done, attunement and passive would have to get changed into more circunstancial bonuses (for exemple, attunement being a simple counter to the passive/active resistance skills in magic and elemental schools). And every active skill in the trees would have to be balanced accordingly.

But the most important here is what the devs think of this. I would be surprised to get an answer through, because I think that changing those types of mechanisms is over sensitive and they simply can't afford any promises which could break the balance in some other ways.

Patience is the key.

 

Additionally: how many hours they want us to grind to be competetive?
Answer: too many!

The Setting does nowhere talk about that everyone needbto become an Archmage of all Schools.

In a believable RP environment there wont exist people that Master more than one crafting profession, Master diametral schools of Magic, be a Necromancer and a Healer, where is the credibility for this in a interesting and diversified Setting.
Chars like we have break all immersion and make RP a joke.
And RP that includes pvp is far more fun, interesting, tense and diverse and many more.
But this was always only about powergaming and no way about roleplaying.

I'm done with that here.
It's just bad and not well thought over.

Cap things, make harsh diametral effects or better locks and it would be maybe cool with some adjustments here and there.
What we have is only to cater people who do nothing else than playing games.
It's no way about roleplaying, so dont call it a Roleplaygame, it's Fake Facts!
You can RP, but then you are toast.
This is again like allways only about Roleplay Elements minmaxing bullshit.
I maybe should realize i 'm to old for that ****.
I have only a couple of hours to play a game, i should play casual games like Puzzle Bubble and let things like this go.

 

Let them try to write a interesting and tense book where captain bennis slaughters 20 Dragons in a row while casting 15 Buffs, using 8 Blessings, eats a ton of food like a Sumutori and can craft his own blade of the Avatar, why finding, make it yourself +16, also a set of Plate anf chain and quickswitch between decks and gear in seconds for "laughable" costs, sorry @Chris, but...

Nowhere something about tense or RPG here. NOTHING.

You cant write a giod book with such Avatar's or Heroes.
How can we roleplay in such an environment.

But as i said, i am minority.
They only caters to majority who do not roleplay.

Sad, 1000000 games out there like this.
No difference, nothing special about RPG, just the same crap like ever.

Skills, levels, raise, power, endless grinding, no matter if it is gear or skillpoints.

 

That's true when you refer to those who grandmastered many skills. That's absolutely untrue when you refer to the decreasing speed of learning curve on one skill. The more you will try to go further with one skill (or a few skills), the slower your progression will be, as you already know. That system is perfect to keep high end players interest without any gap with the more casual ones... as long as (grind) training multiple skills is not a way to grow in power.

Wait... what does mean believable ? Are flying rocks more believable than a master of all trades ? Are undeads more believable than a master of death and life ? Here, our only cardinal point is reality and, in this regard, there is a few things in this game that would not be believable before even mentioning the skills.

About the one crafting profession, what do you know about Leonard De Vinci profession ?
And who is better placed to master death aspects than the one who studied life ?

Yes, having to use magic to be a competitive archer is somewhat strange for me. But I could not talk about immersion. Some people on Earth have multiple abilities. Characters like that don't break immersion. But it surely breaks the intended balance between those who have been able to gain a lot of power through versatility and those who tried to train only a few aspects of the game in a more "classical" way. Those who used dodge with fortified defense, ice shield and evasion to be invulnerable against weapons while others would not train magic and get killed by a fire/death mage combo.

 

But it is.
Having 200 skills on 80 is better than having 10 on 100 (GM tree) for example.
If we make a more proper comparison.
1 skill at 100 is more or less the same as 2 skills at 80.
So, lets just take magic.
Round about 10 skills per tree. I know some have already more.
Have them all (90) at 80 makes you more powerfull than having 45 at 100.

I'm still playing and have not all skills at 80.
It's just a SP skillsystem for 1 in words ONE Avatar.

Yes to all.
My reference are famous fantasy stories and settings. Ultima seems also a good reference, but significant is the following

Do you want a world full of super heroes and da Vinci's or would you say it's better to not have everybody a super hero?
When it is about mmo RPG i tend to say it's bad to have us all the one and only super Highlander Avatar of Uber who can do it all.
There is my main issue when they dont split SP offline and MP or the MMO sandbox. That's neither fish nor flesh and therefore the whole competetition and RPG is crap.
It's better to refuse it and play FMO coop if you want RPG.
There is no good MMO to Roleplay.
If R.G. doesnt do it, then i doubt someone will ever do it. They all cater to another audience, but Roleplayers, they just say so and call it a RPG.
I cannot take that serious if they want me to skill everything or walk as a mage in places with 2 chopsticks just to be able to pvp in this setting. Ridiculous.
Lets ask R.G. and Tracy to write a book that fits this setting they are creating here for MP / MMO.

A master of death dont care for saving life, he cares about death and having as much undead forces as possible.
He hates life, he hates flowers, but he loves rotten ones.

I dont want to discuss or argue against you. I think you made also good points and i think you and me are more or less on the same side.

What i do not understand is, why the ones with power arent ready to sacrifice some power to support the "weaker" and move closed together to play together.
No they insist on their power, they arent interested in a greater challenge, in having more participants. Itfeels more like they want to build a Bunker on Kings Hill. There is no willingness to give up something to get closer together and play together.
It's survival of the fittest everywhere even in games.
GAMES, can you hear me saying that Games, Play. Maybe they allways play Chess with their Kids and teach them allways the lesson about there's no Mercy, no weakness, only the strong will survive. Adapt or die. There is no Handicap or something.
Playing games too serious and with only one purpose, progression, win, might...

I had a lot of fun roleplaying the one who loses sometimes. Who was weak, has flaws and disabilities way more than beeing Mr. Uberpowerfull.
And i could do that, but lame and because i would lock the others out i dont like it.

Caps and more can play together in more aspects of the game!

 

I want a world where I can be a super hero or Da Vinci if I want to be.

I don't care how powerful or rich others are, I PvP, RP and PvE when and how I want to regardless.

@Stundorn, while I may not agree with all your points and opinions, I respect your passion!