The problem with attunement

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Vrenmar Bloodborn, Jul 4, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    14,922
    Likes Received:
    23,424
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    SotA is not D&D.
     
  2. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    6,624
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Yeah, I know it's not. Posts like that are not helpful because it's condescending, and you know that i already know that.

    All I am saying is this: There are many systems where familiarity with magic doesn't make you immune to it.

    Should I take less damage from blades because I'm specialized in blades ? The answer is no, and magic should be the same.

    Seriously, think of how much cooler this game could be where instead of making everyone do the rounds of each magic tree and play some weird tank mage if there was a tree that involved martial magic resistance or training that allowed you, in character as a knight, to resist magic or train resistance without having to become a mage ! You could even jam it in the skill focus tree or tactics or something.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
    Aeryk and Gorthyn like this.
  3. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    14,922
    Likes Received:
    23,424
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    And my point is that SotA is it's own thing. So D&D does it a different way. Ok. I personally like the way that SotA does it; it makes more sense to me.
     
  4. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    6,624
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Well, that's great for you. Good news everyone, Barugon is happy, we can all quit advocating for good changes and features !!!

    Get back to the grind you complainers !

    :p
     
    Aeryk and Gorthyn like this.
  5. Duke William of Serenite

    Duke William of Serenite Avatar

    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Location:
    Grunvald
    I concur. Also if the melee fighter were to be Sara this would be a totallly different post . It would have started with magic is useless lol.
     
  6. Mac2

    Mac2 Avatar

    Messages:
    3,130
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Trophy Points:
    153
    With a guidance pot and being mentored with a good exp pool built up, you can get all you magic trees attunements up to a base of 80 in a couple hours. Don't get me wrong, I do advocate for a passive skill for each tree, but unlike others, I think the exp it should cost should be equal to the exp it would cost to get the same resistance as it does right now. For example, to get 50 moon res means I need 12 mil exp into the ten cheapest skills in the moon tree to 100. Therefore, it should cost 12 million in the passive skill to get 50 resistance.

    If you make it just a 4.8 mil skill to get 50 resistance, then the equation gets unbalanced in favor of non mages who can then counter the 30 million the mage spent on the tree with 5 mil exp, and this will get exponentially worse the higher that skill goes in comparison to the mage trying to raise attunement.
     
  7. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    6,624
    Trophy Points:
    165
    If that is really true, come find me in the game and help me do it. I don't think it's true, because I just spend 2 hours in UT in normal XP with a 100+ level party, and I gained like 300,000 xp max. so.... I am very skeptical.

    Also, I wish this game would warn you a bit better when you are losing levels. I lost like 10 levels in an innate GM'd skill because of trying to fiddle with which skills gain or don't gain and accidentally had it on unlearn, and it took me 30 minutes to lose those levels hunting Ulfheim. Granted, this particular innate is only like, 1 percent different between level 93 and 101 or whatever, but it's super annoying when that happens and you don't notice...
     
  8. Floors

    Floors Avatar

    Messages:
    4,270
    Likes Received:
    6,624
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Oh my bad I see now you said "Once you have a good xp pool" yeah... that's the hard part. I am missing Double XP weekends right now.
     
    Mac2 likes this.
  9. Albus

    Albus Avatar

    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    While there is a system for attunements to jack up the power of certain skills (i.e., spells) with nothing comparable to increase the power of other skills (ranged, blades, bludgeon, polearm), balance seems impossible to even look at, in this regard. If there is to be some sort of balance here, we would have to look at what trees lacking attunement are missing here compared to those that have such a potent modifier.
     
    Gorthyn and Lord Trady of Blix like this.
  10. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    14,922
    Likes Received:
    23,424
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    You mean things like all the combat innates, strength modifiers, poisons, etc?
     
  11. Albus

    Albus Avatar

    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    If they were balanced with the power potential of attunements, indeed so.
     
    Lord Trady of Blix likes this.
  12. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    14,922
    Likes Received:
    23,424
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Maybe you just missed the release that nerfed attunement and everyone complained....
     
  13. Albus

    Albus Avatar

    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I did not, and while it seemed a nod in the direction of rectifying the situation, it does not seem to have solved it. I suggest rather than a nerf there, to create an equivalent in other systems, perhaps replacing the combat innates with "ranged attunement," "bludgeon attunement," etc. Better names could be used, but then there would be similar systems involved where overall skill in a tree impacts its power, rather than such only being so for magics. In this way, balancing the "attunement" issue would be simplified, and any nerfs or buffs to attunement systems would reach across magic/mundane systems to affect all.

    As it is, highest levels of attunement always trump anything lacking an attunement system. Nerfs/buffs to such systems could theoretically achieve some balance, but this would be very complex and difficult, and seems unlikely to be maintained across development/experience levels in each tree. I think as long as attunement works to multiply power it will exceed the power of trees lacking this component. Combat innates are the closest equivalent but pale in comparative power; reworking them as attunements instead of single skills could change this without elevating the power of a single skill (combat innate) artificially and unfairly.
     
    Gorthyn likes this.
  14. eli

    eli Avatar

    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    1,192
    Trophy Points:
    93
    i don't understand what benefit you're trying to gain here... but for instance bec + spec + reach can make your polearm damage 250%+ normal.... way more effective than attunement which maxes at like 180%

    from what i'm reading, it sounds like you're saying magic attunement would be fine if melee attunement mirrored it.... but that would do absolutely nothing to fix magic attunment at all?
     
    Barugon likes this.
  15. Albus

    Albus Avatar

    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Assuming magic, melee and ranged all shared the same attunement system, then we can balance attunement itself (in terms of making too much of a difference) without favouring one combat style/system over another, that's my main thought here. Then, if you nerf or buff attunement you are not boosting archers, or nerfing mages, you are making attunement have less or more power for all characters. I suppose we could eliminate both attunement and combat innates altogether for some of the same effect, but I like the concept of attunement in principle, I just think it would be more easily controlled or balanced if it worked across all systems.

    *edit to add: In terms of the OP's post, I agree attunement is too strong still.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
    Gorthyn likes this.
  16. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

    Messages:
    14,922
    Likes Received:
    23,424
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, let's make everything homogeneous and boring.
     
    Dhanas likes this.
  17. eli

    eli Avatar

    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    1,192
    Trophy Points:
    93
    yea more variables doesnt mean less complexity unfortunately :( even though it sounds like it in words, it just makes balancing less tenable.
     
  18. Gorthyn

    Gorthyn Avatar

    Messages:
    629
    Likes Received:
    1,522
    Trophy Points:
    93
    It's homogeneous and boring now with everyone having to grind skills they don't want just to get attunement and ending up as Tank Mages in one form or another.
     
    Lord Trady of Blix and Gustach like this.
  19. Black FjP

    Black FjP Avatar

    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    305
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Maybe they can just add martial attunement so that someone with 100 bludgeon attunement takes 40% damage from someone with 140 bludgeon attunement, that makes sense, they don't know how to defend themselves from bludgeon weapons very well becuase they don't know how they work. That way you could spend a few days getting your bludgeon up to GM to take 40% more damage instead of 80%.
     
  20. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

    Messages:
    3,620
    Likes Received:
    8,010
    Trophy Points:
    165
    my question would make us step back.

    I dont even know how my atten translates to resistance. I just have around 800+ points in every magic tree and into a lot of worthless things that I have spent a lot of time being forced to use in the hope its giving me resistance. Theres nothing worse then farming the Rise and being forced to have 1-2 spells on my bar that I really dont want to use because they may for example fizzle at 50% (which by the way in game means I have to try to cast it 5 times before it casts because... no... theres nothing wrong with the rng in this game).

    So if I have 100 atten in fire, what resist is that? Someone may say "50", but what the hell does "50" mean, is it 50% or 50 points on some scale (there is a lot of number confusion like this still in the game). I mean, I really do know a LOT about this game, but this is still one of those WTF does it mean things.

    I HATE death magic, want nothing to do with it but right now Im forced to put that stuff on my bar to raise it and watch it fizzle non-stop while doing the Rise because they changed my life spec to add less death resistance so them mages are critting me for 250 hp now and killing me occasionally when 5 mages jump me at once (for no real reason other then the Rise mess's up agros some times).

    Do what Mac says, make resist a passive and screw us with it, make us need 24 mil xp to gm it. I'd take that any day over being forced to fizzle all day long to raise skills I dont want to use.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
    Belgtor and Gorthyn like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.