The PvP Thread

The fact that NPCs are challenging in a different way does not mean that they aren't challenging.

Also, the fact that a computer is predictable doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't challenging. Chess computers are still described as rather predictable, but it's been 10 years since the last time a human chessmaster has beaten a competition chess computer.

While AIs for MMOs and FPSes are more complex to design, AI development is improving.

 

@Ristra - Explain to me how a dragon alone should give the same reward as the exactly same dragon and fighting players in PvP same time? My experience from UO was that the dragon alone was very little risk but the players you had to fight same time was way harder.

So maybe 4 times the loot for having to PvP same time fighting a dragon would be more accurate.

There is not same skills to one shot kill someone but i see no reason to walk away from full loot. You loot what the player have on him, worked very well in UO and artificial loot decided by developers isnt my type of game. The player risk what he brings with him.

 

@SirMishri- I think you missed the point. Players involved in PvP if played well perform better then NPC with same hp, speed and skills. NPC becomes preictable, humans not. Adding millions of HP, speed and damage to a NPC monster can make it unkillable of course.

NPC bosses in WoW, a game i played, was not 1vs1 fights, it was teamfights for groups up to 40 and not comparable with a skilled 1vs1 in WoW or UO where it was all up to the single player to perform well against another skilled player.

Add PvP to any PvE situation and you have higher risk, as easy as that.

 

A dragon should have the same reward, as it is PvE. The PvP should bring it's own reward. Thus PvE with a Dragon while PvPing would = Dragon loot + PvP reward.

<i>"So maybe 4 times the loot for having to PvP same time fighting a dragon would be more accurate"</i>

What is being said is the loot scaling is easy for the Dragon but not for the PvP. Full loot doesn't answer this question as PvPers never wear Dragon level gear to loot. So instead the PvPers are either going after people not PvPing or some other source that has a more desired loot, such as gatherers.

It boils down to finding that incentive to get players to PvP around the Dragon (with players capable of killing a Dragon) instead of seeking out easy marks for fast rewards.

Full loot:
Dragon + PvP = Dragon loot + full loot
Gatherer + PvP = Full loot

Dragon + PvP = harder fight
Quester+ PvP = easy fight (other wise it would simply be PvP)

Chances are the players doing PvP over a Dragon will be of greater PvP skill than a Quester.

Non Full loot:
Dragon + PvP = Dragon loot + PvP reward
Quester+ PvP = PvP reward

Dragon + PvP = harder fight
Quester+ PvP = easy fight

Now the PvPers have a loot incentive to PvP for that Dragon and not the Quester.

 

The dragon loot should be alot better if you kill the dragon while you same time accepted to fight other players in PvP.

PvP+PvE - way more risk

Only PvE - little risk and less reward from the dragon

A fair way to reward players in a risk vs reward game.

 

@Silent Strider

"Actually, Single Player Online is meant to influence the persistent world; those players can, at least, purchase deeds, claim lots, buy and sell from other players through player vendors and the bazaars, etc.

Also, the character in all online modes is shared, so a player can, say, evolve his character, earn gear, etc, in single player online, and then take that character to open play online, even PvP."


Do you have a source? The latest news on single player online that I know of stated that you would NOT be able to do any of the things you just mentioned. Single player online, the way I understand it, only allows the player to see the changes that occur in the persistent world and never allows players to interact because it would be exploitable.

 

@Ara, there is proof required in the statement that PvP brings more risk before giving that better loot. Else it will be exploited by providing easy PvP. (wait till someone has the Dragon nearly dead, gank them, kill the dragon, 4x loot for nearly no PvP)

By keeping the dragon loot the same through PvE or PvP you avoid the exploits. Give PvP it's own reward based on difficulty of PvP would be a more precise method of rewarding PvP.

Which is where my suggestion of a PvP activity tracker comes in. Kill a Dragon while fighting players that are highly active in PvP should carry much more of a reward than fighting some random player attacking a Dragon that never gets into PvP.

 

Many games have contested raiding. There's one dragon in the world and one team gets to take it down (until next week or whatever). It's not specifically about PvP. But there's only one. And it drops something unique or otherwise things difficult to obtain.

It's not about someone artificially tuning risk vs reward. It's just that there's only one dragon. And it drops cool things. You have to figure out how to summon him and get all your friends doing a quest. He may have a spawn window so it's 6 days + 2-6 hours so not one knows for sure exactly when he'll be available to kill again. One competitive guild will likely get there early and try to lock down the spawn. Then others will attempt to take it. It's likely that alliances will form over trying to hold the boss even if it could be killed by only 20 people if uncontested.

 

@Ristra - Ok i try again.

You enter Destard in felucca UO. You see a dragon and attack it, same time as the first spell hit the dragon a PK that were hided entered the scene and charge you. Now you have to fight the dragon and the PK since the dragon have you as target.

You enter Destard in trammel UO. You see a dragon and attack it, nonone else can attack you since there is no PK:s in trammel.

Where do you as a player take the bigger risk? Felucca or trammel? You take a way bigger risk in felucca since you have many more attacking you, a dragon and a player. In trammel you have only a dragon to take care of.

And what more evidence do you need? You cant honestly still claim that the dragon alone is as hard as a dragon and a PK can you?

The dragon alone (PvE) should give alot less reward since it is the game on easy mode.

 

@Acrylic 300, SPO/FPO/OPO are all in the persistent world. All modes will be able to interact. Only Single Player Offline will be missing the exploit checks. I would like to see your latest news stating otherwise.

@PrimeRib, that would be a separate Dragon spawned for the sole purpose of PvP. Not PvP spanning across all Dragons in a spontaneous nature.

This crosses over into the "you must flag PvP to be able to fight this Dragon". While I am fine with that it differs from the topic of PvP adding risk to PvE. It's more of PvE adding distractions to PvP.

 

@Ristra - If you have set the "glider" to full loot open PvP of course the dragons should be available for us PvP:ers as much as they are available for the PvE crowd. But the reward for killing a dragon while you have the risk of being attacked by a player (PvP) should be alot higher.

 

@Ara, so you are claiming just the flag of PvP should provide that extra reward?

- You enter Destard in Felucca UO. You see a Dragon and attack it. No one attacks you. You still get x4 loot?

The chance that someone will attack and never does is risk but should it reward extra loot?

 

@Ristra
No not really. Contested raiding exists in many, many MMOs. Dragons should spawn in PvP zones. I completely understand people not wanting to get ganked question, gathering, etc. I don't really like this either. But if there's end game content like this, I should be gated by the players.

 

I don't think you need any of this artificial stuff where the rewards are clearly in the objective. One team is going to get the dragon or castle or whatever. It has value. You can add a small amount of points somewhere to offset some death penalties but any of this can be small. There's a clear reward there for the taking.

 

Any content that is PvP centered that has a draw for PvP certainly should have a reward appropriate to the content.
As in the weekly Dragon boss example. Players will flock to that point for the boss and the PvP. Rewards should be obvious.

The difference here is normal content. I was flagged for PvP while PvEing should not imply extra rewards.

 

@Ristra

I may have gotten mixed up on the difference between SPO and SP. I thought RG explained it in an early video as being the same as SP only with updates and world changes. Videos videos videos, It's hard to remember everything.

 

Aye, I know what you mean. It's painful to go back and validate anything when it's in a video.

SP is defiantly not going to be persistent while SPO is persistent. Content being excluded from SPO has not been stated as far as I know.

 

I don't believe the slider function is going to work the way some people see it..

I don't see at any point where someone who is flagged for pvp will be competing with someone who is flagged for pve only for resources, creatures etc.

 

I haven't gotten the impression that anyone here believes otherwise. The topic has been more along the lines of reward based on the position of that slider.

 

As far as PvP + PvE goes, if you expect to be able to solo PvE while flagged for PvP, you might want to reconsider that choice. If you want to tackle a dragon for PvE, then you should go with a group large enough to defeat the dragon. If you want to take on a dragon while flagged for PvP, you should go with a group large enough to defeat the dragon AND a tactical reserve to handle pop up PvP threats.

Plan for the worst. On UO Siege Perilous, we would frequently go with a group who would hold the entrance to the dungeon, a group to take on the the Dragon (or whatever we were farming), and an additional group to perform overwatch on the PvE group.

If you ALWAYS expect an ambush, it's hard to take you by surprise.

Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance, otherwise known as the 5 P's tactical mission planning. (There is another P in there, but the language filter will just block it, so why bother?)