Two dudes kill a troll using magic and no one is using Reagents? WHAT?

Congratulations to Themo Lock for killing the Troll solo with no reagents.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/troll-boss-solo.35253/

 

One should not simply acknowledge from afar then make endless speculation. These players are not at your average skill level, not avatar skill, but player skill. These guys train for these type of situations. The focus usage is accounted for as one would know if they were in a situation casting a heavy amount of spells at a high fizzle rate. If a person has never fought the boss troll or gone beyond level 40... they definitely have quite a bit more to experience.

 

Good point, Bambino Themo Lock is certainly not your "average" player A bunch of us BEARS tried to take on that troll last night and barely made a dent in him (not enough DoTs...)

 

If for "two dudes" you mean the best PVE players we have on server, that's fine with me.

 

Despite the Baron's clumbsy social interactions at times with other live humans, I don't believe he was taking an issue with either of our two community members and the work they did preparing to two man that troll.

Thanks to Themo and Alcedes for providing material for this conversation.

That Troll could be any creature in the future. It's not about the troll.

It seems this thread is about the depth of the interconnected nature of different mechanics of the game.

What role will reagents play? I like the ideas above where you carry pouches with uses you re-fill. I also like the comment about requiring reagents to trigger special spell events. I believe the Baron see reagents as the essential essence of a spell and that they act like a seed without which a spell could not cast.

Eventually this game will get released and the depth of detail will matter. If a new player finds out that you can work around reagents and that they are too expensive I think this would be two different design flaws that should have been fixed.

When/if we move to use based skill gain how will I level to 40+ like I normally do with essentially free armor and weapons till I have the cash to switch back to magery?

How will a mage start out the game if they can't afford to cast anything?

I'd like reagents to have more meaning. I'd also like a starting player with a sickle and a mortar and pestle having a chance at self supplying reagents for essential spells the first few hours they enter the game.

 

I don't believe that is a fair statement. I don't remember reagents at all in U1-3. In U4 reagents were required for ALL spells, not just "powerful" spells and had to be mixed out of combat, before you intended to use the spell. In Ultima Online, reagents were mixed "on the fly" as you cast the spell. Now, here's the kicker, in Ultima 8 when you go to the world of Pagan, magic works completely different. There are a lot more reagents and some of the reagents from Brittania do not exist or are used in different ways. This tells me that the role of reagents can change in the "Ultima Universe" when you go to different planets, such as Pagan. The role of reagents changed all the time in the old Ultima games, and if we accept that New Brittania is a separate planet/world in that same universe, then the role of reagents can change again like they did in Pagan.

Going outside of the lore a bit, here is the problem that I have with using reagents per cast, Ultima Online style. This will create two different methods, in terms of cost, to kill a creature and balancing the two will be a nightmare. It will take X swings of a sword to kill a troll, or it will take Y uses of a magic spell reagents to kill a troll. X and Y need to be roughly the same in damage output, or else there will be a clear winner in what skills to use in the game. If it takes a warrior 30 seconds to kill a monster, but a magic user 8 seconds, everyone will flock to magic. Likewise, if the wear and tear on my sword costs roughly 5 gold to repair to kill a monster, but I have to spend 80 gold on reagents to kill that same monster, it becomes much more cost effective to use a sword. Players who want to grind out money (that's most of us) will flock to the cheapest and fastest method to kill critters. I don't think anyone likes the idea of a wizard going broke buying reagents, and thus is forced to learn how to use a sword in order to make money to repurchase his reagents. We could make magic the expensive fast way to kill things, but then you have a big balance issue in PvP. The two systems, melee and magic, don't need to be perfectly identical but they need to be close enough so that both are competitive options.

So I think, in terms of lore and functionality, the best way to implement reagents is with a generic item that represents your characters collection of a specific reagent. You have a "Bag of Garlic" and as you use spells its condition slowly drops from 100/100 to 0/100 to represent your supply of reagents running low. This will deteriorate at the same rate as swords and armor to keep things in rough balance. A sword will use Iron Ingots to repair its condition, whereas the Bag of Garlic will instead use Garlic to replenish the supply. Reagents grown or found in the wild wouldn't be used, directly, to cast spells, but would be used to create the reagent pouches that then are used to cast spells. I think this method would be easier to balance and fit in the lore of having reagents needed to cast spells.

 

I also managed to kill a troll without using reagents, using Body Slam, Knockdown, Earthquake and Healing Touch combined with Inner Calm and Follow Through.

EDIT: The fizzle chance on Earthquake was 5.8%

 

The thing i have with this is ..... reagents should be mandatory for spell users, cause u need them to cast spells, because it is not a natural action .... BUT I think it is totally silly for an archer to have to need reagents for Special ARROWS? wha ?????? Archers don't cast spells .... we only use arrows, natural arrows made out of natural wood ... duh seems silly to me to need reagents.... EVERY game I have played the only ones who need reagents were always the spells casters ..... So I don't get it when archers need it for diff arrows ....

 

there is so much that could be done with reagants, it depresses me to think of there current state. I would like to see them apply different affects to various spells instead of needing them for a spell, what i mean is, you could use sulferous ash on a fireball to derive more damage from or you could use that sulferous ash on an ice bolt for more damage ect ect then you could turn around and use serpant scales on a firebal so its dot last longer .... and of coarse combinations of reagents could be used for a multitude of modifiers. of coarse this is the most simple example.

 

In it's current state I highly dislike the reagents system and I never advance spells to a level where they fizzle too much without reagents (to be honest, killing a troll isn't hard at all if you stay behind him, use drain life spells and have some spare time). So I get why people avoid reagents as much as possible, because in a MMO with constantly respawning monsters it's just annoying to waste ammo to low level enemies (hard to avoid with the current combat system).

I hate to see reagents as some kind of ammunition (just let spells damage your weapons and armor parts and make them weaker, when your equipment is damaged and even hurt yourself; more powerfull spells would be more dangerous and deal more damage to you and your equipment), especially when you don't find new ammo on your enemies.

I'd like the reagent system much more as some way to create more and new spells and combos through alchemy. I'd love to see Magic Books with Recipes for new spells and new spell combinations in the game, that are hidden on secret and dangerous locations (difficult for a MMO, where everyone could write such books and give the spells away for free on Wikis, but still a possibility as long as everyone has to learn the spells for themselves). And very rare reagents would be nice, that are needed to gain access to difficult and complicated spells.

P.S. The Trolls need some more AoEs (especially a hit to the back) and from time to time some distant attack (like stone throwing), that hits the player that is furthest away and stuns him

 

Preach on brother, preach on!

 

@AndiZ275 You do realize that this is the Troll Boss (Torc'Daw the Unbreakable)?!? There is a HUGE difference between the Unbreakable and a normal Troll.

Here are some little known facts for the people that speculate & don't test the game:

• Not having regs increases your fizzle dramatically.
• Each magic school has a different fizzle rate. (earth/life has the least fizzle)
• Fizzle is effected by the armor you wear & what you hold in your hands.
• There is a fizzle reducing innate skill in the focus tree.
• Standing still while casting spells reduces your fizzle rate.

Now consider what Themo is wearing in this video. Full cloth. The Unbreakable would take him down in about two hits. There are other downsides of wearing cloth armor. However, the major upside is that he reduces his fizzle rate immensely by having just cloth armor.

Also, consider that Themo took advantage of every avenue just to remove his fizzle rate. If he brought the regs needed to kill the troll, and could not cast without them, then he would 'never' kill the Unbreakable due to the time period it takes to kill the troll. You'd only have enough regs for 10-15 minutes of spell casting... Then you're done...

 

Well, he has much more health than the other trolls, but other than that? I just fought 10 minutes against him for testing in light armor and just stood behind him, where his frontal attacks can't hit you until I got bored, because my character isn't high level enough to deal the necessary amount of damage. And the stomp damage can be healed through life drains. Does he get a second phase, that I didn't get? Because his normal mechanics aren't really that hard. It just takes forever to kill him...

That doesn't mean, that I don't respect the achievement of the other players (since I'm dealing way less damage and surely don't master the combo system as they are). I'm just saying, that the Troll could benefit from two or three more attack variations, to make him more interesting... (and I don't like the reagent system )

 

You guys keep beating the dead troll (pun intended). There's no doubt Themo and Alcedes (And Womby!) managed to accomplish a great achievement... maybe some things weren't said properly, but that should be treated in private. The Baron brings in an interesting topic where there's a lot to say; how something as rich as reagents are looked down upon everyone?

This is one of the most used arguments on behalf of mandatory reagents for every spell. From my point of view, magic is relative to each world, so why not make a reagentless magic system, then use reagents for something more interesting? What i'm trying to say is that how magic works from a narrative point of view is matter of the author, because magic as in i throw fireballs, summon ice elementals and make myself invisible is something we made up. Why do we need reagents to use magic? Maybe avatars have a certain part of the brain developed that we use to who-knows-what that allows us to freely manipulate the magical energies in the world (making all of us sorcerers). Maybe after the cataclysm magic currents overflowed into this world removing the requirement of reagents to use basic magic? Maybe since magic stopped working after the cataclysm the mages focused their studies into developing a way that circumvent reagents? Just pick your poison.

My point is that from a narrative perspective, reagents are not necessary if you don't want them to be. Now, how to make them matter? That belongs to the gameplay perspective. A look at the past... In ye olde Britannia is established that reagents were needed because of the most popular titles in the saga had them; ultima VI and VII and also Ultima online. In ultima VII reagents were scarce and meaningful; magic was something not reachable by anybody, only a chosen few were able to use it, and only a handful of them were true masters. It is described that besides the hard study and development mages needed to acquire magical reagents. From these substances classified as reagents, only one were rather common (Garlic). The rest of them were scarce (ones more than the other), only harvestable in certain and usually dangerous places. You can also buy them from the mages scattered around the world, but they were expensive as hell. This frame were set up to place magic in that world, and to make the player not being able to spam spells all his way around Britannia. Reagents were meaningful and made sense, because if you used a lot of spells you'll have no more when you may need them.

Then Ultima online come in, and everybody can be a mage, so reagents weren't scarce anymore. They're still required, but when you ran out of reagents, you just showed up into the magic store and buy packs by the hundreds because the way economy developed, they weren't also expensive. In that world, reagents were mandatory, but were they relevant? allow me to doubt it; their massification ripped off the meaning they had through the narrative and from a gameplay perspective they were reduced to ammo. Is that what you really want to make magic interesting? Just as interesting as special arrows. Being honest, i feel sad when i walk into a scene of a road and as i walk out, i've got like 10 black pearls and 10 mandrakes without even looking for them.

Requirements are not interesting. Choices are! I know some poeple don't agree with me, but i honestly don't see the point in any of their arguments for reagents being mandatory. My impression is that they want to be a mage in the scenario i described in the third paragraph... if that's the reason why, i feel sorry for them, because that's not gonna happen because in the world we live (and i mean Earth, not New Britannia) in everybody has the right to play a mage, and to do it effortlessly. What i can see as a meaningful part of this game is what (among others) i've been suggesting. Add a layer of depth to the magic system by making reagents empower or even modify the reagentless spells. That way, everybody can do pewpew reagentless, and then true mages will explore the usefulness of reagents. That way true magic requires preparation, and reagents may be scarce and valuable because they increase the raw power of your spells. Without delving into the possible options, i think this concept can be implemented in a lot of ways, some are easier, some are more complicated, but all may be meaningful

Sorry for the long post, i think that's all for now. And please, don't beat the dead troll

 

Reagents were one of the things that made Ultima Ultima, especially in the second trilogy and U7. Seeing the trend of them becoming less and less important feels like another step towards MMO mediocrity. In my opinion they should be required in at least SOME form for all spells.

I really like this idea, it maintains the feel of Ultima magic and manages to keep a sense of balance.

I had no idea this was the case. And I agree, its ridiculous. Reagents should be for spell casting only, not magical artifacts/weapons, UNLESS a spell has to be cast to make the item.

 

This reminds me of Chris' original thoughts on Reagents back in Release 9. He goes over the reasons for the short term and long term goals on reagent requirements (or lack thereof). Are the reasons still valid or still hold true? What has or hasn't changed with those goals/implementation?

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...chris-release-9-postmortem.14473/#post-239317

 

Thank you very much Smack, i did not remember what Chris said about reagents back in the days... i readed it again (wasn't registered in the forum at that time, but been following the project a couple of months) and i'd say all his reasons are valid, but i still don't like percent chance of consumption for the same reason i stated above. In my opinion, ammo management, while realistic, is tedious. I played an archer in the releases i've been online (and i plan to respec into one as soon as i have the money) and i've been suffering since they implemented special kinds of arrows for each special skill... i can't make Archery into an arrowless skill, because it's a non magical skill and it's supposed to work more or less in the same way it does in our world, so i can settle with %consumption (is more or less what you achieve by having scavenger). I acknowledge the reasons for magic to require "ammo" (balance and stuff), but i think something better can be done with reagents while taking those balance issues with another perspective.

If i'd have to stick to Chris' options, i'd take a mix between Spell have reagents but can be cast without them with decreased efectiveness and Only more powerful spells require reagents. Using these two, we could make top tier magical skills to require one or two reagents to be used and have their power adjusted to justify that expense. Then you put in a more powerful version of each spell which may be triggered if you consume an additional reagent while casting it. For example, lightning bolt may cause damage and have a chance of stun, but if some sulfurous ash is consumed on the cast the stun chance may be 100%. Something in the lines of what i was suggesting, but thinking small. From that, you can expand that system as much as you want by adding different choices or by improving empowered spells are used.

In case someone didn't notice, my primary concern regarding reagents is that some implementations render them as something standard and even more abundant than rabbits or wolves. I think making reagents scarce will be more interesting than just place them as ammo; placing them in specific scenes related with their origin (according to U7 manual, Blood moss in places where big battles took place, Black pearl in cliffs by the sea, Mandrake roots in the "darkest, dankest corners of the foulest of swamps") making them not mandatory, but meaningful.

 

Time for another shameless plug.
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...nd-alchemy-the-essence-of-a-compromise.14498/
I think that all forms of attacks should have a cost associated with it. Me lee is wear and tear on gear. For archers it's the arrows.
Especially magic, and for magic that cost seems to be reagents.
I also believe ALL spells should have such a component including the low end ones.
It also becomes a tiering level of costs for casual vs elite where running pure fresh reagents should give an edge.

 

Let's come to a middle ground here. How about, if you use regs/essence, you reduce focus usage & fizzle rate? As of now, focus is not effected by using no regs.
Let us take Chain Lighting for instance, it cost 12 base focus. Without regs it would cost 18-20 base focus.

 

I found both your idea and redfish's (if i'm not mistaken they had some points in common) great concepts. Even when i'm more comfortable with normal and empowered version of each spell rather than force some kind of ingredient into all of them, if Devs chose that path i hope is something similar to what you suggested. Regarding what i quoted above, i'd like to propose a question to be answered from a balance point of view... are pure combat characters (meaning those who haven't spent a single point in magic) viable? My answer is that if they aren't, by forcing reagents or essences into them you're increasing the cost of playing for them. Haven't tested it so deeply, but it's my opinion that ranged characters use ranged + magic, and melee players use melee + magic. There are pure mages choosing a bunch of magical schools. Since we have two of three who rely on magic, letting them have some standard spells reagentless sounds great; then regarding pure mages balance may be done so they'll need to spend some reagents via empower spells not to leave everything to chance (imagine an empowered gust that also knocks back the opponent, or an empowered ice arrow that freezes the target and then gradually allows him to move faster...). It's more or less the same, but you're giving choices to everyone. I'm free to empower my spells as an archer if i had enough money (and that only may happen if i find by chance a bag of endless arrows).

This is sort of what i'm talking about... it's good, but from my point of view focus consumption is still not enough to justify an expensive and scarce reagents (all my suggestions are done towards the road of reagents being something special and scarce) because you can always buy or craft a focus potion. Of course this is far easy to implement, so i'd go for it, assuming the reagent consumption is optional for each cast (i only spend my regs when i want, i think it makes sense).