Unarmed Combat Skills

Brawling or martial arts. Whatever is in SotA I'd love to see a variety of fighting styles.

I realize this suggestion is pretty expensive but with 5 episodes there's always hope yes?

In the very least I think there should be a basic unarmed combat skill. It doesn't need to be anything fancy but should allow a player to brawl up to a point as well as fight unarmed vs an armed opponent.

Among unarmed combat skills should be..

Deflection.. the ability to deflect incoming attacks. The concept is fairly simple. You redirect an incoming weapon by striking a safe spot.. for example: hitting the flat of a sword's blade. This requires some amount of skill as you need to time it right and be precise left you damage yourself.

This skill is effective against most standard weapons and most of the weapons I can think of where it wouldn't be are small enough that you might be able to deflect the hand holding the weapon.

Disarm.. self explanatory.

Safe blocking methods.. and of course some basic attacks. Obviously you'd do a lot less damage vs heavy armors.. but if you added some basic submission techniques you could get around that.

Of course it'd be awesome to also see a variety of martial arts inclduing grappling, strikes, kicks, throws etc.. contingent upon being suitable for New Britannian culture and story naturally.

I'd like to avoid anime-ish style fighting if at all possible. I realize it needs to be entertaining but I'd prefer it still if everything were physically possible.

 

Unarmed vs armed combat I would be happy with a dodge ability and a grapple/disarm ability. Hitting someones katana or war hammer out of the air mid swing with no protection seems too fantastical for my liking. The speed and pure enertia of a weapon would be hard to block. I could see a parry or deflection ability if the un-armed party was a master at his skill level with a set of metal bracers to be actually able to deflect an incoming strike. Instead of some open palm strike to a speedy piece of sharpened steel. Having your character being required to have some specific piece or type of armor i think would be a nice balance point for un-armed combat. Steel gauntlets give you damage increase, but slow your swing. Metal bracers could parry incoming blows. If a warrior has to equip a shield or a two handed weapon for a decent parry chance I don't see an armor requirement for unarmed combat as unreasonable.

Making a monk for unarmed combat and punching/kicking things to death while slipping blows has always been a fun thought. Putting on different gauntlets/ shin pads that altered your attack ability for damage/speed would be fun. (Spiked magically enhanced gauntlets that allowed me to strike fast with high ammounts of damage)


I like your train of thought though.

 

It may seem fantastical but it's very possible.. but with 'no protection' still isn't a very wise move.. though you really wouldn't be "hitting it out of the air".. it's more like you'd be changing it's direction. Deflecting with bracers is not a good idea generally speaking.. neither is metal really necessary. A good pair of sturdy gloves is all that's required.. been there.. done that. It's reality. and I'm no master.

 

I see two problems. First, most unarmed combat moves, especially in the grappling arts, are very complicated maneuvers, highly dependent on the moment by moment changes in the situation. The point at which skill and talent are applied is in that moment by moment adaptation, as you change from a dodge to a block to a disarm to a different disarm to a strike to a third type of disarm all in a few seconds, not completing the moves, but abandoning them as a shifting posture, a twist of the blade, a half step back, invalidate the technique in some way.

Because of this complexity, it would, in a video game environment, require either an incredibly complex and intricate UI, to simulate the incredibly complex and intricate movements of an actual martial artist, OR would have a simplified version, where the computer attempts to do all the calculations for you. The danger of the first option is A) who's gonna do all that programming work, and B) what if they get it wrong? The danger of the second option is that it would create apparent "super power" moves, situations where all *I* did was walk up to you and hit the 'grapple' button, but somehow my character disarmed you, broke your arm, threw you to the ground, and strangled you unconcious. I've seen both systems occur in video games, and found both dissapointing and unfulfilling. It's a very challenging thing to program correctly.

The second danger is that when an unarmed fighter, even a master, goes up against an armed opponent, there is always a wild variety of possible results. Maybe there will be what witnesses would think of and describe as a "fight", or "contest". Or, maybe one of those hollywood moments when the unarmed fighter seems to just be showing off, the opponent there merely as a demonstration assistant. Or, maybe the master will get abruptly stabbed, fall to the ground, and die. (That third option happens a lot more than people realize)

Because of this unpredictability, a realistic and balanced use of unarmed combat as a skill in SotA would be a very unreliable skill. I think this is GOOD in that it would encourage people to use it as a last resort, instead of actively trying for it, but it would be BAD in that having my attempt at unarmed combat result in me dropping dead in the first three seconds of the fight wouldn't be likely to make me happy. The truth is that when two people of roughly equal skill and ability fight, and one is armed and the other not, the unarmed guy loses. Realistically, he dies. Only when the unarmed fighter has superior skill and or physical prowess do the odds swing the other way, and in SotA, what I'm hearing is that all the characters will be heroes of roughly equal capacity.

I do see room for a fighting ring, bar room brawling, a champion fighting circuit between towns... I would suggest, however, that unarmed combat not be on the standard list of skills that a player must select his or her character build from. If I were choosing between fire magic and hand to hand skills, there would be no contest. If I could somehow get the hand to hand skills for free, without losing a more potent skill, then suddenly they would be far more interesting to me.

 

You're making an awful lot of assumptions there. First off I'd like to say I trust this team. To a point where assuming such extreme imbalances is unthinkable. It's like saying you think they don't know what they're doing and can't balance this kind of skill properly.

Disarms and grappling are two different skills entirely. I've no idea why you're lumping disarm into a grappling skill. Being familiar with some disarm techniques they're not so complicated as you seem to think. Neither is simulated combat going to bother taking into account things like your opponent shifting their weight or taking a step back or whatever else that would require all those extra calculations. You couldn't possibly get that detailed with a combat system for a game.

Again being a game.. there is only a limited number of results and scenarios from which they occur and it's either success of fail bassed on skill.. or skill vs skill plus modifiers and a roll. Then results & animation. It doesn't ened to be complication but simplified also does not automatically mean overpowered.

As far as risking being unbalanced.. how is that any different that every other skill in ever other game? Everything has to be balanced.. no exceptions. Everything runs the risk of being unbalanced if you don't make an effort to the contrary. Also why would it be unreliable? I'm not seeing the case there. Because there are a lot of variables in RL unarmed combat? The same is true of ALL combat.. unarmed or armed.

I seriously disagree with the armed guy always winning with when skill is equal. Ok that might be true if the armed guy has a gun and is out of reach.. not true of melee weapons. If you're stupid enough to simply stand there in the line of attack then it's not equal skill. There are always opportunties to get inside and do some damage. There are always ways to avoid getting hit.. moving out of the way for example.

 

The armed guy may not always win, but I would think in order to move fast enough to dodge a weapon you should be limited in what armor you wear. Then if you did miss your "Dodge key" I would cave your chest in with one blow. The lack of armor gives the unarmed fighter a speed advantage to avoid getting hit, but if he is up against an armored opponent he loses 95% any damage ability. Sorry to say no matter how many times you punch me in my steel breastplate with your bare hand, your hand is going to hurt a lot quicker then my body will. I'm sure there are ways to code it, but then what would be the point of making an armed warrior? If I could do the same damage with my bare fists, and no armor?

Now take me for an unarmed combat hater.
I'm all for an unarmed class, but it would have to be the same as any weapon class. Special moves, coupled with the same advantages/disadvantages as anyone else. Weapons/armor to strive for, special moves to choose from. Let them Stun, Disarm, heck let them take a dexterity check for a eye ball gouge. So long as its balanced. I think an Adamantium gloved martial artist with a dragon leather suit would be pretty intimidating, especially if he walks around punching monsters to death. "Dude that guy just choked that dragon to death, then punched its baby in the face!"

But

If all it takes is someone to train up some martial arts/wrestling and dance around combat not being hit/not hitting for damage. This would be some extremely boring pvp. Mind you I would have the Bruce Lee /Yip Man of crafters, and walk through the dakrest parts of the world untouched. Punching trees and rocks for resources.

 

I wouldn't want anything quite as fantastical as punching through trees and rocks. We're not making a strictly martial arts game and we're not making an anime. Martial arts brings with it precision and more deadly moves.. however those moves could only be used on unarmoed areas. It'd be pretty hard for example to crush your wind pipe if you're wearing a gorget.

Armor does present interesting challenges to the unarmed fighter. In fact I would generally say that most unarmed fighters should be unable to kill their opponent (assuming they're conscience) without specializing.. like say in breaking bones. While it's not as true for chainmail.. any other inflexible armor would mean having to focus on unarmored areas. I don't care how much plate you've got on.. if you're not wearing a helm that covers your face I can still break your jaw.

Now one thing I will never argur against is balance. This should not be an easy skill to master.. there should be advantages and disadvantaes.. and if you really want to be deadly with it you really do need some sort of armored gauntlets.. especially against creatures and armored opponents. Otherwise you'd have to aim for knocking someone unconscience first before you could kill them.. but that itself lends itself well to brawling and sport fighting as it would allow to completely defeat an opponent without killing them. Of course if someone was unconscience and you wanted to kill them it'd be pretty easy to do.

 

I agree.
The trees and rocks part was just an exaggeration.

 

Indeed but it's one that is often used. It wouldn't be surprising if someone put that kind of ability in a game.. but I just think it wouldn't be appropriate for SotA if we do get martial arts down the line. Especially with the current community which seems to favor the more realistic over the fantastical when gameplay will allow it.

 

I agree with MalakBrightpalm here in the statement I quoted.

I would also hate to see a character who was unarmed with very few gear items beat a heavily armored knight, who has a huge investment in armor and gear, with ease. Simple may be best. Coming into a fight with bare hands or a pitchfork vs. a sword... I would hope that most of you are betting on the guy with the sword.

I would love to see brawling as a sport and a form of combat should your primary weapon break. However, I would be upset if a naked brawler could go toe to toe with heavily armored opponent simply for the imbalance in what the gear for each warrior would cost in time/gold.

 

Some moves for being on the run would be nice.

 

I'm leery of using the term "martial arts" in regards to a high fantasy world like New Britannia, just because it tends to open up some strange concepts. But unarmed combat is not new to Ultima, and should definately be included in SotA.

Ultima 6 had a bar that featured a nightly drunken brawl, and it was intimated that the Jhelom dueling pit in Ultima 7 was used for wrestling as much as sword fighting. Both Ultima Underworld games had unarmed combat skills that allowed you to punch down doors and enemies alike. But this is brawling and wrestling, with some military application such as chokes and knockdowns, not judo kicks and wuxia jumping. I don't want to see a monastic order of martial artists; the monks of Ultima make wine, not break heads.

Consistency to story is more important than making sure everyone knows kung fu.

 

I really see anything 'complex' in this regard as a post EP1 idea. There's 5 continents we're aware of in this world.. EP1 is only the first. I wouldn't expect martial arts specifically in EP1.. but I'd be surprised if there were none at all anywhere in the world.

 

I think that this skill would play well in the game but not as a primary skill. I enjoyed the way UO did it before. When someone disarmed you or when you were casting you would use your wrestling skill. I think the power behind it was very weak though and that is why most didn't care to much for it. They could add in some changes, like if you were disarmed you could disarm them if you leveled your unarmed combat skill. In short, I think it would be too difficult to make this a main skill that people would WANT to use without making it too overpowering. Also remember anyone who was unarmed combat could fight without using weapons giving them another big advantage, unless they required fist weapons or something of the sort.

I just hope they don't make it a main skill because in my experiance in gaming, they either become very overpowered or weak and unbalanced. normally resulting in using the same 2-3 moves over and over.

 

I agree that in a world of swords and axes it shouldn't be a main skill, but as a back-up it could give you a chance to hold out when you are disarmed (game style where your weapon is just temporarily un-usable or at worst dumped into your backpack).

I did used to train in fisticuffs outside of Moonglow against mungbats, a lot of hours and it never seemed to work against anyone or thing that was armed or much bigger than me. That may have also been because I only wore a loincloth, shoes and gloves. It's not too sportsmanlike to wear armor when you're engaging in the sport of unarmed combat.

 

I personally would prefer a variety of realistic martial art maneuvers as opposed to simple brawling (which is usually the norm in most fantasy RPGs). For those who feel that martial arts would be out of place in New Britannia, remember that our player characters all come from Earth and would likely already know a variety of martial art styles which we would be able to introduce to the populace of New Britannia. (Not to mention characters who visit other islands or continents by boat could also pick up these skills in their travels as well.) Of course, the developers would have to find a way to maintain gameplay balance - a single martial artist shouldn't normally be able to take down half a dozen opponents all by himself and, of course, there would be penalties for trying to perform martial arts in heavy armor. However, a lightly armored, highly skilled martial artist should be able to hold his own against a single, slow moving, heavily armored opponent wielding a large weapon. I certainly would like to see everyone have the ability to learn how to defend themselves effectively. That means that I would like to see monks who can defend themselves and others, as well as make wine and transcribe documents. It would be quite interesting to see a player terrorizing a helpless, unarmed farmer or merchant and then be shown the error of his ways...

 

I should point that armor and big weapons doesn't mean "slow" unless by slow we're talking relatively speaking. Polearms.. staves.. spears.. can be deadly fast and a good set of plate doesn't slow you down THAT much. Simply being unarmored isn't that much of a speed advantage. Though you can make a case in martial arts where you specifically train to be blinding fast.

One thing you have to keep in mind though is game combat is more of a simulation of "stage combat" rather than real combat. Moves are bigger.. fights are drawn out and there's a limit to how fast you want to be. If the audience can't see what's going on then it's no good.

 

Of course, by "slow", I am speaking in relative terms. Someone wearing full plate armor and wielding a two-handed sword or battleaxe will obviously be much slower to react than someone wearing leather armor and wielding a quarterstaff. We certainly wouldn't want the characters moving so fast that you wouldn't be able to see what's going on. Introducing a variety of different real-life martial art styles would make unarmed combat more realistic and interesting...

 

Gamewise different martial art styles would probably be best broken down by the attribute they best represented, speed=Dex, power=Str, toughness=Con. And since it is a magical world it might not be unreasonable to expect some form of elemental or spiritual power based on Wis., since some "normal" Earthlings upon arrival will somehow discover they have acces to magical powers, but as martial arts, these magic powers shouldn't out weight the physical ones.

*hypothetical speculation.

 

The reason that Wrestling was so important in UO was because it allowed you to be able to get hit less by dodging and avoiding the attacks from others while you were unarmed and casting. Other than that, I can say there was maybe 1 or 2 times I actually finished something off with my fists... except mongbats and rats of course