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What it takes to craft one set of armor.

Discussion in 'Release 29 Feedback Forum' started by Link_of_Hyrule, May 9, 2016.

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  1. Moiseyev Trueden

    Moiseyev Trueden Avatar

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    You are forgetting that crafters are supposed to be populating loot tables for every NPC mob out there...
     
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  2. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I buy the materials to make low end armor, and will upgrade as i find parts i can afford or materials i can afford. I effectively gather all resources i need when i make gold coin
     
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  3. Leostorm

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    Id be ok with breakable items.

    Id learn to manage and move on.
     
  4. Link_of_Hyrule

    Link_of_Hyrule Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Right now as far as I'm aware there is no way to directly upgrade a regular Epic Cloth Armor Set to Fustian or another kind you just have to scrap it and start over from scratch. Which honestly I wish there was a good solution to this and that we could upgrade from basic cotton to the other kind of fabric some how.
     
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  5. Wodin Folkvardr

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    I mean no offense, but in order to forget I would need to know what that meant. Is there some literature I can read that explains what it means to populate the NPC's loot tables? I mean I understand the literal form of the sentence, but by what means does a crafter get said item to their loot table and what does the crafter get out of it?

    ~Woden
     
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  6. Moiseyev Trueden

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    The devs have constantly said that NPCs are supposed to be buying stuff from players and their vendors and instead of the item just going "poof" it instead gets slated for the loot tables. How the actual implementation works I have no clue as that seems to keep getting put on the back burner so they can create and focus only on the player to player market that has the very issues and concerns that everyone has been bringing up.

    The concern should not be trying to get players to keep buying high end items, it should be on focusing what makes it appealing for players to sell to NPCs so that the loot tables and economy succeed like they are supposed to. This way you have items of all levels going to loot tables. Crafters making money from all ranges of the crafting field. And players coming to "well known" crafters to get custom gear made exactly how they want it for higher profit.

    I keep waiting for DarkStarr or another dev to comment on how that is supposed to happen with the current focus of crafting going WAY left field of what it was supposed to do.

    As for specific literature I can point you towards media articles they've talked about it in and try to find some of the dev hang outs it was mentioned in... but that will take a little while.
     
  7. Wodin Folkvardr

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    @Moiseyev Trueden

    That sounds very interesting and basically what agra seemed to be saying the devs were ignoring before so I just figured the two idea's were not the same. I guess my only thought (although I like this idea) would be how does this actually remove items from the system? If I sell a sword for 1,000g to a vendor, and then you go loot a monster and get that same sword, you could in theory bring it back to me and we just made free money. Would only a certain % of items sold to NPC's go to loot tables? I suppose that could work too. I'd be interested in reading more about their vision, I'm admittedly ignorant on the topic.

    ~Woden
     
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  8. Moiseyev Trueden

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    That's the problem as I see it too. But unfortunately, though they've talked about it in interviews, they are rather vague about how it would work. It's why I tagged DS above in hopes that he might explain more of the ideas behind it or if it is officially no longer the intention.
     
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  9. agra

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    Yeah, when the "what you sell will end up in loot tables" idea was pitched, among the first criticisms were that it wasn't a sink, and the system was potentially duping items. (from the players perspective of duping).

    Consider this; So, I make a copper longsword with a bronze hilt. No-one wants it, so I sell it to an NPC. It goes into the loot tables. Now, there's a chance that items will be spontaneously created, either 1 or more times, as loot.
    Ok, so.. either it's duping the items (creating many from nothing) or it's just recycling that original item, which is actually worse than just destroying it. Why? Because unless you literally track that one item through it's life and death, as far as repair or durability goes, it won't be repaired. It'll just be used and sold again, re-appearing at full durability, or salvaged.
    Generating items out of thin air isn't ideal. It creates a lot of other problems.
    The mechanism, behind the scenes, isn't trivial either. If you are tracking unique individual items, that's an entirely different kind of database load, compared to generating them from stats, which has no database load at all.

    I guess if the intent is that players get those items (sold to NPC's, given as adventure loot) solely to salvage, then it has some merit? But there are so many other massive problems with the current economic model, it's hard to know where to start with the fixes. :(
     
  10. Lazlo

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    I think that levels or no levels, a game that frequently adds new content will retain players much better than one that doesn't. If someone buys a bronze long sword the first week that they play and never sees anything better, they're probably more likely to just get bored and stop playing then they are to keep buying more and more bronze long swords because theirs broke.

    Like I said, I don't really have a strong opinion about it one way or the other, but I think if item destruction is a necessity then the game probably has big problems.
     
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  11. Ice Queen

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    Aye, I've been wondering how they will actually do this too, wish they'd come out and give more info when it's coming too.

    One other thing I wish they'd also do is make it so that when you sell an item on an npc vendor, other people can see it on the npc vendor and have a chance to buy it if they like at npc costs. That crappy sword you don't want anymore could be a good upgrade for someone else and if you sold it on the npc mechant that person would get a chance to buy it. Sort of like Asheron's Call when we'd sell items to npc's, we had something like 5-10 mins or something to see those items for sale on the npc merchant before they poofed forever. Also ccidently selling an item to the vendor and not being able to get it back bites in most games, Sota included.
     
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  12. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Usually if they are vague and havent gone into detail much on something that hasnt had its framework put in yet, its probably likely they dont know the details themselves yet.

    You've seen howangry folks get when they say how something is likely gonna work then it turns out very different.
     
  13. SmokerKGB

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    I think you're forgetting a big part of the equation here:

    1- Not all players want to craft or gather materials to craft, maybe 1 in 10 want that style of chr, but since this is early access, there're no dedicated chr doing that right now... So everyone is forced to do it themselves or rely on the generosity of others in their group... The single player doesn't have that luxury...
    2- The wear & tear system is not complete or in the game yet, what we have is a "frame work" system, the repair with a kit part, who knows what longevity items will have? I'm sure it will depend on how often one plays...
    3- Using your example: 1 in 10 would mean 5,000 supplying 50,000 with materials, and those 50,000 are supplying 500,000 with gear, that's a lot of sales, IMO and with a resonable wear/tear plan, items won't last forever, nor will they go "Poof" while your in the middle of a battle for your life, when the item hits 0/0 Poof it's gone, better drag out my spare (which I'm forced to carry everywhere because my main could go poof)...
    4- For those who like to gamble by taking risk, enchanting is perfect for them, they don't care, their goal is taking risk, if they succeed, they have a rare item... Do you really think they'll take further risk and actually use that item in Battle? They would rather sell it and have done with it, out of mind, out of thought... The buyer won't take the risk of using it, it's a trophy now, on display... A piece of the finest gear around and never used for fear of "Poof" or loss when more Death pain come into the game...
     
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  14. Noric

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    I think you're discounting the amount of materials that come from fighting. Animals drop a lot of leather and humanoids drop weapons that turn to scraps.

    Also there are quite a few at least partially dedicated crafters even at this point.
     
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  15. Arkah EMPstrike

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    There's gatherer's out there right now selling enough materials for any joe with the cash to come buy and make stuff with.

    The plans they had llaid out early on for gear breakage was similar to what's in place now, with the addition that it gets increasingly more and more expensive to repair the equipment the more often you repair it. I has hoped to see that in place because it would not only allow people to wear thier rare stuff without fear of losing it, but would also insure that at some point, they will want to buy more gear, and perhaps leave their rare gear on display for a rainy day when its truely needed
     
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  16. Wodin Folkvardr

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    I'm not forgetting any parts; there just seems to be some miscommunication/understanding. You yourself said there will be a reasonable "wear and tear" plan. That is the same as the "Poof" circumstance I'm talking about. "Poof" was not used to state the random removal of an item from the game at a random time.. only that an item needs to be removed by some means.

    If an item never breaks but costs for repair become exponential to the point where the user buys a new item then they will in turn get rid of the previous weapon, it's no longer effective and too expensive to use, this effectively "deletes" the item from the game. There will also need to be more metrics tied to weapons to make this "exponential" degradation of items persist when traded to other players.

    As I've stated before - I don't really care "how" they go about it, just that items need to be removed to continue having a healthy economy. Sure 500,000 might seem like a lot of trades, but EVENTUALLY it will be hit. You also need to consider that 500k might be a starting number but after a few years the likelihood of population drop would increase and effectively bring down that number as well.

    I'm not saying any one persons solution is the best, I think there are many many MANY ways to keep the system healthy, it's all about implementation. The fact is there will never be a solution that makes 100% of the people happy, that's just the way humans are.

    ~Woden

    NOTE: My opinions are based on the MMO portion of the game; Single Player is a completely different conversation and has little economic impact truthfully.
     
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  17. Aldo

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    Just seems to me that rare drops in mob loot tables is the way to go. For myself, if hardened elf fighters RARELY dropped a special sword that was 4X damage against the undead, I would dedicate many hours or days working for the drop. This would definitely be fun for me. I never fight presently in zombie areas due to plague, but a sword of resistance to plague would open up many areas for exploration. Some rare items could have limited durability to keep them basically out of the system but for a limited time. Rare drops could be in the form of dyes, deco, weapons, armor, potions and etc. People will devote a lot of energy trying to get a 1/1000 drop. I know I would. Fighting the same mobs over and over for basically nothing like now is pretty boring. Fighting those same mobs in anticipation of a fabulous drop is not boring, even though I may never get the drop.

    Edited to apologize for straying from the OP, but the conversation seems to be swaying in the direction of loot drops and the economy anyway.
     
  18. Moiseyev Trueden

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    Still boring... but as long as we are stuck doing boring things currently, might as well get something nifty for it. 8^)
     
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  19. Ice Queen

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    Here's the only latest thing I've seen about it, it's in the lot selection thread. So it looks like it's still on the schedule, just post-wipe.
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/final-wipe-and-lot-selection.44430/
    • Crafting:
      • Alcohol: Brewing beer and distilling liquor which has mixed effects on the player.
      • Teachable Crafting Recipes: Teaching recipes to other players, much like emotes.
      • Public Gardens: Rentable planting beds in public areas for those who don’t own land but want to do agriculture.
      • Player Made Items in Loot: Crafted gear sold to NPC Merchants will have a chance to appear as loot on humanoid enemies.
     
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  20. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Only downside: it's a Themepark economy and not a player driven one.
     
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