Why "card deck" combat will be skill based

Many feel that it was a mistake to draw a strong parallell between SotA combat and card game systems since this gives an association to something artificial, slow and random. It is easy to instinctively assume that combat will be based all on luck, but I don't think so. Quite the contrary, such a "card deck" system might create a battle system that will be complex and challenging to master and with more variables than normal.

To be the best, you need to excel at several stages of combat:

1. Knowledge:
   • Know the effect of each skill "card" you have
   • Know the potential of combining each skill "card" with other skills. I have the impression that there might be many ways to combine skills into more than they are on their own, so perhaps at times, you will even have several alternatives. Do I combine my Fireball with another Fireball for a Firestorm, or do I combine it with Swipe, to put my greatsword on fire?
2. Strategy:
   • Select a combination of skills that are right for your play style and that includes cards with the potential to boost each other
   • Decide how often you want each skill to appear (by training skills more than once)
   • Tweak combat parameters with skill points (like how long timers are before unused skills are replaced by new ones)
   • Balance risk vs. reward by deciding on how many locked skills you want (skills that are always available). Locked skills cannot be combined with other skills to create greater effects, so you can choose to have a stable, reliable combat performance (like a traditional MMORPG) or gamble on one that requires flexibility, quick thinking and a bit of luck to pull off. The best combatants are probably going to be those who successfully manage with less locked skills or find some optimal middle ground
   • Manage non-skill effects that modify your skills (non-skill "cards")
3. Quick thinking and reactions:
   • Activate the right skills before they are replaced by new ones
   • Decide between playing it safe by using skills as they are, or waiting for new skills to appear that make combinations possible

You need to be good at all of this, so skill will separate good from great. Of course, harnessing the randomness of the system will be a part of that skill, but not the only one, and randomness can be decreased in favor of predictability.

All in all, this sounds like a challenge to me. I understand that some find that this "game inside the game" could make combat feel less realistic, but I'm not so worried about that. It doesn't have to be if it's fun. Successful innovation in battle is not common among MMORPGs and if this system is enjoyable, it's going to draw a lot of new players in.

The final result all depends on how they implement the battle system. Can they do it in a way where skill activation is not so absorbing that you lose control of the battlefield?

I'm more excited about trying out combat with this system than if it had been a traditional one. It might be harder, and I like that.

 

Amaranthus, wonderful post on the possibilities for the combat system. I'm actually looking forward to trying it even more than before after reading this.. I'm all for combat that doesn't require 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3! 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3! Hopefully we don't end up with me needing to keep the reticule on the target or everyone in my party is doomed.

 

I will give it a try, but i really hate Magic the gathering, Pokemon and the type of card games, I personally i think it will slow down combat, which i do not like. All those points i naturally execute when in a pvp battle, what skills what magic etc...will i run or stand my ground! Strategy, Knowledge, Quick thinking and reactions, its all there already without the card system! But i will give it a try none the less! Even if at this point without trying i dont like it! To truly find out if i like it or not i will have to physically see how it all pans out!

 

I agree with your points Amaranthus, well said. I'm looking forward to trying this innovative combat system out in March - as you said it combines Knowledge, Strategy and 'thinking on your feet'. Bring it on!

 

It does sound interesting. I too am looking forward to trying it out. At least Portalarium are trying something new and fresh rather than copying other games.

Also this type of system isn't so affected by latency issues some of us international players will have to deal with.

 

Hey, Blaquerogue, I don't like Magic the Gathering either. I agree with you that there is a chance that it will be hard to focus on other things than activating your skills. For instance, if you're juggling several dangerous mobs and at the same time need to put in an effort to combine the right skills, I think that could be very hard. Same with flight and movement in general. But maybe they have good solutions for that. I hope so. I'm crossing my fingers.

 

While I'm all for something different than the typical mmo combat..I just don't like the idea of my skills randomly appearing and disappearing as if I'm pulling the lever on some sort of slot machine. I hope I'm wrong and card combat is fun and innovative..but I fear it may come crashing down like a house of cards.

 

Great OP. If I could add one thing to it, it would be the additional Strategy element of having to plan your "deck" ahead of time, and with that, getting used to how it plays so you can better predict your draws.

 

The premise of the system seems interesting, and has been said that the intent is to promote active gameplay and reactions to immediate situations, versus always knowing exactly what ability to use and when for anything at all times. Obviously, just button mashing isn't going to work, and the more practice on the system we get, hopefully the easier and more intuitive we can react to abilities as they become active.

I just -really- hope they change the term "deck" to something else at this point. Probably not intentional (or maybe it was, DS does like Chaos , but it has caused a lot of contention for folks that envision throwing actual playing cards at each other, versus swinging those shiny weapons. A different terminology would really be helpful towards redirecting people's concerns.

 

Requiring skill is nice. But that's probably the least important thing to me. I don't want something awkward.

 

but if we use those skills and techniques, for instance I'm a warrior so my main skill is fighting, why should my game skill be dumbed down because of cards? It kind of defeats the purpose to work any fighting skills! Also what if the card deck was put to use in crafting? You work your skills and get good, but the cards say different based on randomness! that's the only thing i have against the card systems and i dont think its fair, besides the fact i hate magic the gathering and pokemon! Why cant my skills be based on my skills!?

 

Well they appear and disappear in a set time, that isn't random. It will be at a pace that you can actually determine through the focus skill tree (increase how fast they come out for faster pace, increase how long they stay out, use slugs to make them stay out longer)...
But I think you meant you don't like the idea of a random skill appearing and disappearing. Like the OP said, it's only as random as you make it. You can set it up so there is little to potentially no guess work of what you'll have at a given time (no guess work meaning if you only put 1 skill in your deck and it's just a buff, use max locked skills and the rest of your deck is slugs).. at least from what we've heard. Chris said how high you can train locked skills (more training = more slots) will be determined through balance/player feedback.

 

I could be wrong here (since we haven't actually gotten to see or play with the proposed system yet), but at least the way Darkstarr's original post described it, it's not an actual physical "card" like something from a MtG game (and I hear ya, I've played them, but not my preferred forte), but more like an in-game prompt that would show up and alert you to a specific ability that could be used for potentially the maximum desired impact.

Maybe, for crafting (as your example), while you are forging that awesome sword of +5 Epicness, you are given a series of prompts and abilities that depending on how well you perform, the quality/durability/etc could be increased. I'm thinking back to Ultima 7 (funny how I always do that and the forging of the Black Sword. You had to actually run around to fill the cistern, heat the blade at the forge, then over to the anvil to hammer out the weapon, etc. It was a lot more fun, to me anyway, than just clicking a "Craft: Black Sword (1)" button that just throws the materials together in a sterile fashion.

Definitely, your skill (points, that is) should make the basic deciding factor if you could even craft the item or not, but then actually getting to use your other skills towards potentially making a Grandmaster-type quality seems interesting, I think.

 

take a look at the combat skills, you train in swordsmanship, what you get are some knockdowns, pommel strikes, a riposte, mostly extra attacks/debuffs. And you also get some innate (passive) abilities, so you train those as well. So what skills are you putting in that make you not good? Is it because you are wearing heavy plate and have too many slugs? Is it because you put in a shield skill for blocking arrows and they are only fighting melee?

Your game skill involves both preparation and how you use things in combat, We aren't sure what combos will be out there yet, but there might be a riposte+pommel strike combo for extra damage, but if you load it up with a bunch of useless skills or too many slugs from your equipment you wont see that come out. Then once you get your first riposte skill you have to decide, will you use it or wait to see if you get a pommel strike? so this is some tactics, if you have the skill to put slugs to save skills you are in better shape, you wear heavy plate and save your riposte for a long time till your pommel strike comes up, and hopefuly by this time your opponent is weak and this will be a finishing move, or close to it.

This is very dependent on your skills and knowledge of your skills and picking a winning strategy. Your skill level will determine different factors, one we know for sure is how often they will appear (you can put more in your deck) and it's speculated that damage/effects will go up as well. (not confirmed)

Crafting has absolutely nothing to do with the combat system, they are completely separate systems/skill trees. However, there is more to the crafting than we've seen so far, and yes there is going to be randomness in it as well, depending on your skills you might get a good item or a failure that needs repaired before you can use it.

 

I'm leaving it to try before I pass any judgement, new changes can sometimes be good changes.

 

its pretty much the same with the EA version of UO (if is wasnt in place before hand i cant remember) with special attacks based on your skill, except you just click it to use it, then it has to cool down, before you can use it again, much easier i think.

 

yes, cooldowns are much easier, and boring, and done to death.

 

i tell you what if you like complication play Arma2, that took awhile to get used too! Personally i dont like complicated. Now if it was figuring out ingredients etc.. or riddles i like that type of complication!

 

That is why they included locked skills, so you can have a simple, straightforward combat experience.

It's only as complicated and random as you choose it to be.

 

yeah i will probably use those alot!