Why is that...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stundorn, Jul 17, 2018.

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  1. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    The majority in this community believes and want SotA be a effort=reward game in sense of effort =time grinding and not playerskill=reward?
    Why is that we need to have that power disparities and a not balanced playing field also casual gamers (casual=only playtime related) can fully partake in all aspects of the game?
    Why or wherefrom comes that attitude that the guy who played/ grinded more need to be rewarded the way he is more powerfull, can make more profit in the player driven economy and it's not balanced the way everybody who plays can contribute to all systems in the game on a similar to equal level.
    Why?
    Dont come up with, ecause everything in life is so, because this is a game and not real life work or competetive sports or whatever.
    And why there are games and projects that do exactly the opposite .
    Sea of Thieves
    Fractured MMO
    SWG Legends Emu (got a level 90 token when starting)
    for example.

    Why don't we have this for SotA?

    A good example for me is the recent Make Agriculture more casual friendly discussion i started:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/make-agriculture-casual-friendly.134732/

    What is the problem if i get max amount out of my crops if watering them 3 times took me longer to do and cannot be done in the actual timeframe. If i cannot login daily agriculture is just a waste, i cant sell anything for competetive Prices, i dont want or are able to compete in time, so if it takes me 4 days or even 5 to do the 3rd watering, the serious farmer already has planted a second crop and already watered it 2 or even 3 times.
    But i want to be competetive about production costs. It's still an advantage for the daily player, isnt it?
    But to not water 3 times in the timeframe makes agriculture just a waste of time.

    Why do we have this attitude when players there put down arguments like effort = reward.

    I do make a (bad) assumption, but i'd be glad you can counter that argument.
    It comes all from RMT, because if things would be easy to get and for everybody then all looses value. Everybody can get what he want and the gare is not about interacting in the first line, not about interdependencies of players playing together (cooperative and competetive), but it's mostly about grind and progress.

    It's in it's core design not about playing a game, but creating value for almost everything.
    If you arent able to put the effort in, buy it.
    Is that the cause SotA is setup like it is?

    I am more and more thinking they dont created a game in the first place, but tried to create another RMT Hub.

    Please reconsider making a game for everybody where everybody is able to fully partake in all aspects of the game.
    Even the competetive parts like PvP and Economy. Why not? What is the cause it needs to be the way it is?

    Grinding is not gaming . At least to me.
    A free skillsystem and optional quests dont make a sandbox.

    A sandbox RPG has characters playing/fulfilling roles, there exist interdependencies and needs.
    Good Roleplay consists of powers, but also weaknesses of a character.

    Why dont you want as many players as possible and if you want them, why Design the game the way that it's more or less only about grinding, RMT and self sustainbability?

    I just dont get it why they decided it this way and weren't able to make it a success .

    Because SotA beeing a success is still on hold imo.

    And thats bad :(
     
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  2. Kabalyero Kidd

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    Portalarium can stop allowing RMT right now (they don't allow account selling anymore in the player marketplace) and the game will NOT be any better...
     
  3. moxiepilot

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    Didn't you already address this in another thread?

    I think you need to be like Elsa and Let It Go....
     
  4. kaeshiva

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    Honeslty its a bit of both.
    If there is no benefit to spending more time in the game then there is no incentive for spending time in the game. If everyone left isle of storms fully decked out in gear and fully levelled up then there'd be no reason to do anything - harvest, level/develop crafting/adventure skills, etc. We honestly might as well be playing an FPS in that case. The journey and the effort is a big part of the MMO. Personally I don't think I'd play an "everyone's exactly the same the only difference is how fast you can buttonmash" game for very long, with no way to grow and develop my character I'd get bored pretty quick. That may just be a personal difference between me and you, but I like to earn what I get and feel a sense of achievement. Take that away there's not a lot left.

    Uhh...because that's how it is? Some games that have been around for a long time may give players an instant "buy level cap" option (or on your emulated server of a long closed game, sure, they give it away). I'm sorry but that is simply how these things work.
    Effort = reward. The more you put in, the better you get.

    Let me try to phrase this another way for you.

    Lets say you have a job doing anything. Picking coconuts for example. You work an 8 hour day, and you pick 100 coconuts. You get paid $100.
    Now Bob? Bob only works 1 hour per day during which time he only picked 1 coconut because he isn't as skilled as you and doesn't work for as many hours. You think Bob should get paid $100 too?
    Lets say you honestly think that's fair.
    Then what happens tomorrow. Maybe you don't pick coconuts as fast, because well, you're going to get the same money as Bob anyway, so there's no real reason to put in more effort.
    And so on, and so forth. What happens when NOBODY wants to put in ANY effort and everyone just wants everything handed to them? The coconuts don't get picked, and the coconut company goes bankrupt because it can't pay unproductive workers.

    You cannot honestly expect to play less time and get the same reward because you have this perceived concept of being "more skilled". If you're more skilled, you'll advance more quickly in the time you do have, you'll perhaps use your time more efficiently, or game content will be easier for you, but likewise, someone who isn't as skilled as you clearly are can bridge the gap by investing more time, by practicing, by playing longer hours and earning slowly over time to achieve parity. Honestly, I think if we took that away from people, 1) there'd be no reason to actually log in and stay logged in for long periods doing anything, since everyone's the same and 2) anyone who isn't as skilled as you must be has no way to compensate by levelling up or working on better gear because in the universe where skill is the ONLY thing that matters, there's no reason for anyone except the elite of the elite to even bother.

    I think our current system is an excellent balance of the two. Skilled players clearly have an edge, but what you lack in skill you can make up for in perserverence.
    If you don't have the self-discipline, desire, or motivation to put in additional time, then don't - your choice - but don't try to take it away from others.


    Because effort SHOULD equal reward.
    In games, in life, everything. I'm so tired of the entitled 'participation award' crap I could literally bite my keyboard in half.
    The counter to your question - why should people who put in no effort receive a reward? Or receive anything at all? They haven't earned it.
    I mean, if you honestly feel people should be rewarded for doing absolutely nothing please log on and just give me all your stuff because according to your philosophy I deserve it as a reward for being able to succesfully type in my log in details.
    Ridiculous, right? But that's what you're asking for here on a grander scale.

    Everyone CAN fully partake in all aspects of the game. We have this. already. Whether you can play 1 hour a day or 10 hours a day, you can do everything. You'll do it better the more you practice and the more time you put in. If you didn't get any better for having put in time and practiced, then nobody would put in time or practice! You think I'd spend 5 hrs a day practicing and perfecting my piano technique if I could just roll out of bed one morning and be Mozart? The whole point of the game is that it is a journey. This is what you log in and do - play the game - and in so doing, you get stuff, you get better, and you create your path to whatever your goals are. You want to skip the journey and just skip straight to the end, and because that's what YOU want, you want to de-value everyone else's time investment and bring them down to your level because you don't want to actually play the game.

    Again all I'm seeing here is you want something for nothing, you want to be competitive but you don't want to put any effort whatsoever into developing/levelling your character. I assume you also don't want to spend the time and effort to get materials/gold to gear your character either. Honestly, I think this genre of gaming may not be for you.
     
  5. Steevodeevo

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    Some people seem to spend considerably more time posting complaints about how long it takes to do stuff in game than the time it takes to do the stuff in game.
     
  6. Spoon

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    Small note here outside of the argument.

    Specifically when it comes to agriculture then we do have this.

    Plant stuff indoors (or preferably in the basement) then you get the x10 time modifier and can thus water at a much more reasonable pace.

    It's not exactly what you want but it works and is already in the game.
     
  7. SmokerKGB

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    I didn't see one idea of how to change it more to your liking... Seriously, they're not mind readers, if you don't tell them specifically, then they can't even discuss it behind closed doors...

    I really don't understand what you want, every game I've ever played has grind in it, put in so many hours and your chr gets to be so far in development... Wealth builds, it just doesn't happen all at once... In order to get to point B, you need to start from point A and start walking... Some ppl have 24/7 to play games, and others don't, they only have 2 hours/day, both will get to the end point...

    So, I guess you just want to buy your chr off the shelf, all pre-developed, ready to go, no effort, no time, just be at the Top...
     
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  8. Violet Ronso

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    His main ideology comes from Sea of Theives where there is no character progression, you simply jump in the game, gather loot and gear and do whatever you want. A lot of games don't have this grind to make the characters numbers higher, or have caps in place so that at some point people reach that cap and others can eventually catch up and then everyone is on the same playing field, just some are faster (Think UO, there was what, 800 skills points to distribute or something like that?)

    I will admit, although I understand what Stundorn says, I do not fully agree with him. I like this capless system, and the only thing I would like to see is "PvP specific caps/nerfs". Implement more zones with a level cap (meaning if you go in with a higher level, you will be temporarily leveled to that zone). And maybe reduce damage numbers specifically for PvP so that fights can drag out longer (I mean some people can hit for 1k+ damage with some skills, isnt that crazy?). Leave the PvE side of things alone when doing these changes, and I honestly think everyone will be happy even without adding in caps or "buy-out" options
     
  9. Deana Beretta

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    Ok, you managed to list 3 games that do not have a progression system (I'd argue 2 games, as SWG likely continues to progress past the level cap, just using equipment, rather than character levels). If that's really what you want, why not go play one of them? Why try to force that style of game on this one (or continuously argue for it at any rate)? Progression systems are popular. People like them. Over the past 20 years, they have invaded nearly every genre of game. First person shooters have experience points and skill trees now (call of duty, borderlands, etc...). Action games do the same thing (God of War, Assassin's Creed, etc...). Hell, even rogue-like games have taken on progression systems (rogue legacy, dead cells, etc...). It seems like the vast majority of all games have taken on the concept of:
    • As you character progresses, they get stronger
    • They earn points that can be used to unlock new abilities
    • The abilities you choose to unlock affect how you play the game
    This is a concept that has existed in RPG games since their pen and paper roots. It's a mechanic that other genres have latched onto. What does a game like this (an RPG) even become without character progression? Without it, there could be no difficulty sliders. There could be no hurdles to overcome. There could be no "I had trouble with this when I first started, but now that I am stronger, it's easy". I'd wager that the removal of the progression system in this game would cause 95% of the players to lose interest (probably even more than that). I'd rather see the population move in the other direction.
     
  10. kaeshiva

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    Gotta have something to do while watching the refining bar move inexorably from left to right, left to right, left to right...
    ;)
     
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  11. 2112Starman

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    Ive read you a lot over the years Stundorn and agree with a lot of things you say. But I can also say that anyone who attacks SOTA over RMT is just trolling. It is the most fundamental thing baked into the game from day one and really the only thing that sustains this kind of project in they way they did it (crowd source). Basically they have to sell stuff to make money to keep the lights on. Many of us can agree that crowd-sourcing is a failed idea over traditional development but that ship set sail long ago.
     
  12. Daedwax

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    Why don't we have this for SoTA? - It's an entirely different system, for an entirely different game. Why should you be rewarded or other people punished for your inability to play? Why should i lose 10 GMs because you don't have time? I'm ok with rested experience giving you some bonus for having waited between play sessions, but this still should equal out to someone who puts in more time gaining more.

    I do make a (bad) assumption, but i'd be glad you can counter that argument. It comes all from RMT, because if things would be easy to get and for everybody then all looses value. Everybody can get what he want and the gare is not about interacting in the first line, not about interdependencies of players playing together (cooperative and competetive), but it's mostly about grind and progress. It's in it's core design not about playing a game, but creating value for almost everything. If you arent able to put the effort in, buy it. Is that the cause SotA is setup like it is? - Why should you be given things for free? You keep bringing this up "I'm a casual, reward me!" Why? Why should you be rewarded for doing nothing? I've been cooperating with other players since I started, mining up minerals for them to forge, they sell their wares and return to purchase more ore. I'm confused how your complaint is your able to buy it, it has value, and players can sell it. Those all sound like good things to me.

    Please reconsider making a game for everybody where everybody is able to fully partake in all aspects of the game. Good news, you can already do that! As long as you have a bit of time to play the game, are you asking for them to make the game free?

    A sandbox RPG has characters playing/fulfilling roles, there exist interdependencies and needs. - This is exactly how its setup, it's also why their exists a time sync to some extent. I mine ore, someone forges into weapons and armor, someone buys and uses the items.

    Good Role play consists of powers, but also weaknesses of a character. - I completely disagree. Good Role play consists of good role players, enjoyable setting, and good characters/plot.

    I hope you find what you're looking for Stundorn, but I really disagree with your "Simple Math..." & "Why is that..." Threads. I think we both want good things for SoTA but i'm concerned they're completely opposite ends of the spectrum. Thanks for your time.




     
  13. Stundorn

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    I completely agree to that, but why isnt it designed with a cap and endgame everybody can reach, it may took me 10 times longer than a hardcore player, but i then can fully partake .
    Actually there is no end and although there are diminishing returns you still get boni and imo these are key and let you allways feel behind. Beside that the way to reach that is to exhausting and grinding.

    I allways thought sandbox rpg are in the end about trading, war, reputation, but on a playing field all are equal strong more or less, the only thing is playerskill what the hardcore have no doubt more if because the practice they have, all cool, why need another bonus?
    And isnt the main cause to play to have fun, cooperate and compete, having these interdependencies at least for online gaming ?
    I did adress this 10 thousand times and i'm not tired to do so, because i believe this would bring SotA a couple of thousand interested players , a more UO'ish and SWG like endgame sandbox with pvp, economy...

    That's allways a term i never accept.
    But i know i suffer from that in life very much :(
    There are going to kill xy
    They are going and wage war on XYZ
    They are doing it this and that way, but it's not good.
    And people say it is like it is, we cannot change it. We can, if we really want to, but we are lazy and let some do what we dislike, but we let them do it :(
    The reality and games are 2 different things, but to be honest. Those who work less earn the most, at least those who dont work at all and ket others work are the richest.
    I work in local gouvernment, and i was a male nurse for over ten years before.
    I can tell you those who work more, earn less . Think of the Kids in 3rd world extracting rare earth in a 12-16 hours a day or producing your cloth in India, China, Pakistan ...
    And then compare their effort and reward to the effort and reward the Manager does.
    This is exageration, i dont want to make no effort at all, but have it balanced and not 10+hrs a day grinding be the measure.
    I'm asking to be able to have an even playing field for endgame and make the way to this not that exhausting by capping skills at 100.
    And the limit trees is to have interdependencies and incentive to interact in an online game.
    I cannot partake in pvp until i have a competetive char, my and nobody skills are never going to compensate the example of 29% Damage between Sword Base skill 100 and 140.
    And if i need to grind that even in UT at double Xp Weekends (unfortunately i mostly cannot play on weekends, because i'm a singleparent) it would take how long? You stated in another thread that a new player got to level 89 in UT in a week but was handed gear and highly supported by highlevels.
    That's exactly what i dont like to get pulled somewhere i want to put effort in and do it on my own or with equal strong players to not have the feeling everything was gifted and i was only there to get the XP, but literally contributed nothing worth to mention.
    That's not true, i only want an even playing field for endgame and a less exhausting and more casual friendly way to get there.

    We once sat in the same boat when we were pure Mages, suffering from the game like it is or was for pure Mages.
    You may had more luck to find people who helped you, who you can play with and you may have other expectations and arent interested in RPvP sandbox gameplay, but i am and i just think SotA would be more successfull if it were more casual friendly, less grindy , more balanced and more sandboxish.
    Thanks for this answer @kaeshiva this proves you are very patience with me :D
     
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  14. Stundorn

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    Ya like all workaround make a fool of oneself, sorry not acceptable.
    Maybe something in between 3 days and 3 weeks???
     
  15. Stundorn

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    Not helpfull, but i see the players who dont like me also want to like a post here.
    Gratulations.
     
  16. Stundorn

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    It's really frightening how i am allways be misunderstood :(
     
  17. Stundorn

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    Because i like the atmosphere, the RP emotes, the combat system, the graphics, the housing and decorating in SotA more.
    SoT is no MMORPG, i like to play it, but you cant settle. I like it like it was in UO and SWG, but with a more complex and fluid combat system like SotA has.
     
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  18. Anvar

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    1. Because were playing an rpg not a fps/action game. rpg`s (role play games) have this thing called xp, levels and progression. and you wouldnt have got a lvl 90 token if u started the game at its inception I bet....

    2. It is player skill. Ive seen low level characters (5hrs in) soloing tier 4/5 zones and that was by skill (vs npcs) and if likewise you took one of the better pvpers and gave them a character with lvl 80 skills theyd still woop a lvl 100 unskilled pvper.

    3. Agreed on agriculture, it needs a lot of work. Imo you should get 25% crop if u just plant and dont water after then +25% for each water and yes removing the timeframe would help, maybe have it reduce your yield by 5% for every hour past or so.

    4. Its RMT because its not sub, simple as that. But there is NOTHING that is pay to win on it, Its as I refer to it pay to bling, although some of it is overpriced ie heraldry.
     
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  19. kaeshiva

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    No, not really. I put in the hours - thousands of hours - of gameplay and adjusted my build about 5 times until I found a compromise between effectivness and enjoyability.

    I can see where you're coming from where you want there to be an end, a limit, a cap, so that eventually even the slowest-paced levelers can reach that cap. Most games do this in some manner.
    But putting in an end, a cap, a fixed stopping point to growth - especially one that could be achieved quickly in a month or two of even casual play (such as skill lvl 100) it becomes max out, and move on because there's nothing left to do unless you like pvp for pvps sake.
    The reality is this cap already exists - the softcap beyond skill level 120 is pretty much a brick wall. And with the double-xp periods and the new zones dishing out a million an hour to full groups - even to groups of players of mixed level / gear who join forces to do it - well, getting a skill to 120 might take you a day. Or a couple, if its one of the more expensive ones. Honestly, that's not a lot, and you probably don't need more than a handful of skills that high anyway - the diminishing returns curve is so steep that you get very little benefit beyond 100, and even less benefit beyond 120. You can achieve like 90% of the power of a hardcore player for 1% of the time investment - I think that's more than fair.
     
  20. Stundorn

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    Thanks all for replies.

    One last thing i want to mention.
    If it were successfull the way it is, i wont argue, the success would speak for itself.

    But SotA isnt successfull and therefore i think reconsidering some of the points i made is worth.

    The people who like it that way should have fun, i dont want to take something away from you, but imo this wont be last long the way it is.

    Lets hope i'm wrong.
    That the game in the end isnt for me, is nothing new.
    I returned to have fun again and again struggle with the same things.

    Exhaust on grinding, feel not rewarded for the time i can spent and to do things like lazy agriculture and stuff is also not possible, because of the shedule.

    Ok . I wanted to post another thread about all the good and cool things about SotA, but also the bad connected to that.
    But i guess it's wasted time.

    I wont have anyone who afree with me here and some are for sure glad if i just disappear again.

    I'll try to please you and will disappear again.

    Have Fun - Stun
     
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