PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

Read the OP. Or merely the part I quoted. The devs want to be able to use gear to gate PvE progression; that basically means gear progression. You want to complain about that, you should complain to the devs, not to me

Personally I would prefer a flat system where a sword is a sword is a sword, where the difference between junk items and good items is negligible. Even then I wouldn't play with player looting, mind you; it's just that I do prefer when my character's progression is mainly my character and less my gear.

 

I saw that, very bizarre! I don't even know what was wrong with your post. My original was pulled as well. I'm sad to see you're so disenfranchised with the game when it is so far off but you have your reasons. My hope is that the discussion in this thread is being watched by the developers and the PVP will end up being something that basically satisfies most everyone.

 

I am reading it the same why as you are, I think.

The questions I have are on the lines of how will be combat resurrections going to be handles and the experience debt.

If the player needs to have a positive control of the field to be able to res a fallen player the dead will be forces to take res sickness as the res is not possible while the enemy is present.

Experience debt could be interpreted in different ways. It looks like it's simply a reduction in exp gain till the debt is worn off. But if it's a temporary hit to skill level then each death will escilate the need to leave the field and go work off that debt.

 

I've not doubt it will. I also believe (though I've no empirical evidence of such) that the system proposed at the beginning of this tread does or will with minor refinement achieve that. However there will always be a vocal minority who will be satisfied with nothing less that complete, non-consensual, 24/7 open world PvP and full loot.

Personally, I don't really have an opinion of what PvP should look like, as I am unlikely to participate, and require Only the ability to opt out.

 

Good questions, it would be really nice to get them clarified.

As far as the exp debt goes, once people are at the hard skill cap, they typically don't care about exp. So, unless there is an ancillary penalty, debt alone won't be a strong motivator, eventually. But yeah, these "rathole mechanics" as I call them, are why I recommend simpler solutions, typically.

The other aspect to death from player conflict is the desire to keep players coming back, and the desire to entice them in the first place, if they're not inclined. That's difficult to do with overly punitive mechanics, which these could be, depending on the details that are unclear.

 

Actually, being in the process of playing through Ultima 9, after doing a marathon of the thirteen games preceeding it over the last three - four months, theres clear gear progression through all of them. I think people may be too hooked on the WoW model to step back and see it. Typically the progression is you start with cloth, work your way up through pieces of leather, then chain, on to plate, then magic and finally the mystic. Weaponwise is similar with progressing through various weapons until you reach the mystic / throwing axes of doom thing. And upgrading your gear to the next tier, both armour and weapons, to keep advancing through the storyline. Attempting to circumvent that at the times that you could, such as doing Silver Seed as soon as you reached Monitor, would lead to hideous amounts of Save Scumming to survive through the content.

Given that save scumming doesn't exist in the multiplayer environment (and theres next to no info on the offline environment) then thats not an option, and building up a set of magic plate for when you hit up the next aspect of the story, and then the prospect of losing it all to a player or mob, and then trying to find a way to replace it doesn't sound fun and depending on the circumstances, I could see it as a trigger to walk away from the game for a period of time at least. (I've got an absolutely massive backlog I can hit up if I get annoyed)

So yes, content gated on gear has always existed in the Ultimas. Even specific pieces of gear such as needing the Mystic Arms to defeat certain mobs, the sword Enilno, the Blackrock Sword, etc.

 

Sounds incredibly boring. I know Ultimas weren't like that because this:

http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Weapon_Values

I like progression in RPGs, that's what I play them for, to advance my character and my equipment. It's boring to have one but not the other...

 

Yea one you're talking about single player linear game, two you're using Ultima 9 as an example, the one EA influenced most... Seriously, who's going to stand up here ?

My example was rather that you didn't always need to follow the "plot line"...

I know I scare all the trolls, but I scare the old schoolers too ?

 

There was gear progression through all ultimas, 1-9.

http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Armour_Values

there is the armor progression too.

 

I don't see disagreeing with you as an indication of fear.

 

nobody disagrees with me they tell me I make no sense, pff 8) you trying to judge my sanity right...

gear progression ? the next tier sword will hit 2 damage more... thats called a loose funnel not WoW style "I must get the dagger to complete my next tier set" kinda obsession...

pls don't quote the mystic or crystal sword I'll just rip my hair off my head.

 

Mishri... you have like 3000 posts... what are you on about ? Whats your point ?

ima go hit the gym this is so extreemly frustrating... BBL

 

Meh... my post count doesn't matter.. it just shows I need to find something better to do with my time.

I'll put it like this, starting out you have 6 Armor, later in the game you have 22 armor, and there are several sets in between those.

You don't have to have the difference of 20 armor and 200,000 armor. As long as there is meaningful and useful progression.

An example for UO would be, if I had GM gear I wasn't nearly as effective against an ogre lord than as if I had ogre slaying vanquishing and indestructible armor. In fact, I know my warrior couldn't solo ogre lords with just GM gear.

 

I see this as an argument against ogre slaying vanq weapons and indestructible armor.

Perfect your character, not your gear.

 

I don’t see why it is an either or situation here, I think both are important like mishri said. It’s not fear that some of us like character development that not only includes skills etc but also gear. And no, for the hundredth time that doesn’t mean WoW style.

 

I think it would be better if this expertise were skill related, not gear related. For example, if you wanted to role play an expert ogre slayer, you could choose to devote skill points to achieve that. But there should be a trade off involved. If you choose to specialize in ogres, you cannot also specialize in dragons, or some other megabeast.

Otherwise, you run into the 'golf bag' syndrome. "Ah, an Ogre Lord. Let me equip my Ogre Lord Mace. Where is it? Here's the Lich Lord Silver Sword, and there's the Dragon Lance, and there's the Werewolf sabre, and here's the Vampire cutlass, etc, etc, etc."

 

Think of gear from a crafter perspective.

Common ore used to make armor vs rare ore use to make armor. Should the armor carry different stats for protection, more stats, or have more stat value? It's a variance in gear not a gear progression that has been proposed.

Common materials used in armor will not provide as much protection as rare materials. Weak enchants vs Strong enchants, same thing.

 

I don’t see an issue with a person having swords or weapons they keep for certain things. This would obviously be controlled by weight limits etc and as well as storage space, an easy control. What the difficult thing to control would be making sure that the sword of +2 ogre slaying isn’t so easily attainable that everyone has one. It’s all about controlling the amount. It gives another meta game feature within the game. You may have that +2 sword of ogre slaying, but I have my mace of undead killing… Also, this would still be heavily influenced by skills, since not everyone would proficient in maces or swords and then the bonuses wouldn’t matter as much. I’m not saying make skills obsolete but have items and skills compliment each other.

 

Actually, the most fun I had with character advancement in pen and paper RPGs was playing ones that didn't exactly have gear advancement; using off-the-shelf gear made the character feel all the more special
(Specially because I love playing gadgeeter characters, ones that are able to turn common implements into deadly contraptions )
Few computer RPGs offer that experience, unfortunately. I don't mind that much, though; I understand why gear advancement is used and don't begrudge it.

 

I agree with this. I hated games (which I won't mention) that I worked my butt off for my armor/weapons only to have it worthless upon the next update. I hate grinding for gear. I would rather be able to craft gear that will take me thru the whole game without gimping my character because I don't have that spectacular 'RAID' gear! I hate raids and dungeons anyway, but when I did go thru the headache of raiding a 'medium grade' suit of armor and weapons, I was quite disgusted to see it outdated in a matter of weeks.

Let's have our characters be the skill factor in this game rather than our gear. That would be such a welcome change from the normal MMORPG norms.