PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

Well, I'm not your typical player either. I have over a hundred games on my GOG account, many of them installed on my computer and seeing regular use

I'm not sure they are exclusive, except for the extreme of risk taking. I believe the way the devs proposed some time ago to use instancing so PvP players wouldn't even see PvE players, and vice versa, is a good compromise.

As for the extreme of risk taking, where a series of unfortunate events could push a player back almost to the start, that one has other issues in a game where gear is meant to be valuable. The devs had said something of the kind, if I'm not mistaken, as early as in hangouts back during the game's KS a year ago to explain why full loot wasn't planned.

This, if I'm not mistaken, was more or less the intent when RG created UO; a game mimicking real society, where the social structures protected players from each other while allowing freedom. It wasn't really successful, though, with predator behavior being far more common than expected, which seems to be why few other companies even bothered to try the same model afterwards.

 

Yea well its much more complex than that, and why then do your camp refuse to acknowledge that all the pre-backers of SotA are mostly not the predator type ? Some very competent players out there I read the forums quite a bit...

And even if we dragged a few odd apples along, I heard it through the grapevine ; they're here because they admire RG or SL and had mad fun griefing and abusing the gentler kin (ok thats bad but still an argument), how hard can it be to understand 1+1 = 4 then ?

Either we stand together and live, or divided we fall... how hard it is to throw a bone to those "misfits" ? I feel so much hate, so much fermented agony... why ruin our only chance at a community ? This is NOT going to be UO2, every player here has quite a bit more computer skill and organisation than back then when half the player base were kids looking for a quick fix on their teenage agressivity.

Ahu calls the moon !! can you hear me major Tom ?

*based upon projections of the future acquired with modest means and limited timeframe*

 

I read so many comments on here about free open world shaped in the way that people want etc etc….This isn’t being made in the same way the UO was…this isn’t just going to be a bunch of vendors and the liked standing around. There is an overall story to this game, which really changes how the rest of these work together. I’m interested to see how they pull PVP to even work with the story of the world, the volcanoes and meteor strikes being one way…I guess it kind of makes me wonder if many of you even know that it is being designed as a overarcing storyline.

 

You are going under the assumption one would only flag when they wish to pvp. As for me I will flag once then stay that way, full loot only brings more to my experience and if that end game item gives me a better shot at survival then ofc im going to use it.


I was more thinking along the same lines as you, to flag and stay that way in my crafted gear and on the odd occasion I want to do story content I would un flag and put on my bling. if u want to run around flagged for PvP in your bling then I say sweet bring it out
I am willing to give it a shot even though you might have a slight edge as far as gear goes, I might have mates with me for eg.

An option for dropping full or partial loot when you create as suggested previously, can that be done?'(i'm not a computer person)
can't it be as simple as a choice when you create?
1: Full loot
2: Partial loot (I don't know 2-3 items?)
3: no loot

Looting as per the time taken ideas.

 

sorry I cant do the quote thing

 

If I have missed something, then that's fair enough, but I haven't seen a post from a dev saying "this is absolutely how it's going to be." Outside of duels, which we know are going to be a thing, I thought it was still up in the air with what was going on hence the continuation of debate in this thread. If you have a link of a dev solidifying what PVP will be then please let me know! This is a huge deal for myself as well.

No worries man, I wasn't inquiring to be a smartass. Was genuinely curious.

EDIT: I reread the initial post by Starr and while he doesn't say that the system he's proposing is definitely the way it's going to be, they clearly don't want open PVP. However, it does seem like he wants the discussion to continue so I wouldn't think it's completely off the table just yet.

 

Yes, yes we can.

If you create a design that separates the economic issue from the tactical issue, you can innovate. Not using full loot as the tactical feature moves toward this goal. (which they've done, a little bit)

Now, if they would just innovate a little more... the number of potential solutions would be higher, but at least what they've got now is a slight separation.
Unfortunately, allowing resurrection in-hex permits players to return to the battle, which is a whole other logical problem.

Put simply, if you allow players to return to goal-based or resource-based scenarios, by being rez'd repeatedly, there is less strategic or tactical value in killing those players. This is the same problem Warhammer Online faced. As long as you brought enough rez'ers, the fight was frustratingly extended.

If strategic removal of a combatant from the field of battle is a/the primary design goal for direct player conflict, once someone is defeated & removed from combat, they should remain removed until the scenario is complete or the battle is over.

So far, not the case for SotA, and that's unfortunate. Hence my ongoing wish to see players immediately removed from the scenario/hex upon defeat or death, and THEN options presented to proceed with gameplay. In other words, the ghost mechanic ultimately has no value, in my opinion, as it facilitates in-hex rez'ing.

 

There is a spirit rebinding sickness, depending on how strong of a hit this is, it could have the effect you are pointing out.

My guess is they are using spirit rebinding sickness for the typical respawn lag protection for situations like rez camping or portal camping. But if spirit rebinding sickness is a time out from PvP, the player can not enter a PvP hex until the spirit rebinding sickness has worn off.

 

A potential, though gamey, way to mimic full loot would be to have two sets of gear equipped at the same time: PvP gear and PvE gear. The character would have one equipment tab for each kind of gear, and each kind of gear could only be equipped in the appropriate tab.

PvE gear would affect combat against NPCs, and PvP gear would affect combat against players, obviously. PvE gear would be obtainable the way the devs intend right now, while PvP gear would be crafted like in old UO and likely far cheaper and more readily available than PvE gear.

This way, the player could drop all PvP gear when killed in PvP, but it wouldn't affect his PvE capabilities in any way; also, PvE gear wouldn't influence, or unbalance, PvP (apart from the possibility of fights involving both players and NPCs).

This could be complemented by tagging anything obtained while flagged for PvP as something that can be dropped for a while — even things that would usually not be dropped, like PvE gear — with that tag being removed the first time the player is offered the chance to drop out of PvP. Thus, if the player goes to a PvP event, anything he obtains there would be lootable, plus any PvP gear he brought, but things he had with him before entering the event wouldn't be lootable (and the killer doesn't need to even know such other items are there). If the player successfully goes back to the city then the tag on what he got is dropped, consolidating his earnings.

It's not full loot, but it's an illusion of such. I believe it would fulfill for the most part the desire of those that want PvP risk, since the player would have to get into the PvP zone and safely back again in order to gain anything, while restricting the loses and preventing PvP loses from affecting PvE; it would also allow PvPers to nullify the PvP fighting capability of opponents by looting their PvP gear.

The main disadvantage I see is, of course, that it's gamey. Seeing two tabs of gear would be a constant reminder that PvP and PvE systems are segregated.

(It would also prevent me from engaging in PvP, but at this point in time I doubt the devs will make PvP something enjoyable for me anyway.)

 

Never even thought about what to do after death during a scenario. Great ideas everyone. Not sure if I'am educated enough on PvP to make an opinion but the stance by vjek sounds like a phenomenal idea.

 

My impression from what they've outlined is you only get that sickness if you self-rez or re-spawn, NOT if you are rez'd by someone else. So, if that's true, the on-the-field in-hex rez'ing issue is still there.

A great point to get clarification on, though.

EDIT:
This is what I'm referring to:

Spoiler

The trick here is there's at least five terms used to describe this process, and without definitions, it's tricky to understand how the implementation will actually work.
If revival refers to another player bringing you back from defeat or death, this would seem to facilitate zerg-rez'ing, is my impression.
I'm not sure how someone rebinds without reconnecting, that's not enumerated, nor how someone rebinds WITH reconnecting?

So, at least a few remaining points for elaboration.

 

I really hope there aren't 2 sets of gear for players. It is unfortunate that it's starting to look like a gear based game already.

sent from the future using my Coleco Adam

 

I was under the impression PvP stats on gear were in addition to the PvE stats on said gear. So it would still be one set of gear, or am I missing info?

 

Simply the continuation of a musing by Silent Strider earlier.

 

And as expected my post was PK'd! Im gald you saw it before they capped it! Its truly how i feel, this game is just not for me or my liking, alot of people in here i dont even want to play with! honestly.

 

For PVP - "Going Forward After each successful kill, the player responsible for the opposing player's death must immediately issue a written apology to the opposing player. Failure to do so will result in a 1 hour ban."

 

Starting?

We already knew that devs were planning to make gear important for almost as long as the KS process itself, though in a different way than most other MMOs. The idea that gear becomes better for the user the more it's used was tossed to us a long time ago, if I'm not mistaken already as a reason why player looting wasn't being considered at the time.

My suggestion is based on the idea that gear progression is here to stay, that making players lose their hard earned PvE gear if they are defeated in PvP is out of question to start with. Yeah, it's gamey, but I sincerely don't see many options that allow devs to keep the gear progression they seem to be planning and still implement something that even mimics actual player looting.

And, sincerely, unless forum posters can convince the devs to give up on gear progression, any suggestion with even a glimmer of hope of being accepted will have to take into account that gear progression will exist. Any suggestion that doesn't answer Chris' (or DarkStarr's) explanation in the OP for why full loot won't be implemented likely has very little chance of even being considered.

To recall:

 

Gear progression ?

Anyone recalls anything like this in any of the ultimas ? well of course theres good and bad gear... but the ingenuosity of using stratagem to get your boss ? Gone ?

You seem to really rub salt in the wound Strider... you look and sound happy that your brothers and sisters are seeing a clone of WoW albeit much better (we know its gonna be much more fun)...

While we spent 10 years arguing with the new UO elite on siege perilous telling them ; no I wont join your stupid games cause we're waiting on RG to come back to his senses and give his most loyal fanbase what they always wanted. There IS people here from siege perilous that have been hoping for 10 YEARS !!!

This was compound reinforced by the fact that EA tried to break that model ! And we were under the impression that RG was on our side !!! That showed in the storyline of UO too... but I'm not getting into this suffice it to say that promises and hearts lie broken with this type of announcement.

We were even under the impression that RG had signed a NDA and couldn't even get back to gaming within 10 years after selling his rights to UO to the evil guardian, so we waited, and waited. We paid for this shadow of a game and I've seen grown man cry over it and the marriages and friendships that were created.

Yes the guardian won, but so what I still have my memories. You have no right to stand there and laugh at our agony.

We were under the impression that joining the silver serpant meant something, not that you'll be catered like sheep and given a monster that fits your gear cause we have no other way of making it easier or harder ?

This is like destroying the dream of any self-respecting Ultima fan... this is not final fantasy 10 thousand, don't expect me to accept the truth, I wont...

I will deny it with all my heart as long as its given to me to be your companion. I refuse to beleive we do not want a community and that we'll just meet together for social and business and competitions or even worse... this is horrendous and my heart winces in pain.

 

Well, this was their thinking. I just hope that it is something they reconsider. When I see DarkStarr, I always ask him if they are any closer to deciding what the murder and justice system will be like he has told me that they are not. While this is only loosely tied to PvP, there are many important and fundamental mechanics that are still up in the air. I am just hoping the game will be truly unique and not more of the same.
I already have items that evolve with me as I advance in EQ2's latest expansion (it really only sounds interesting on paper.) That just makes you more attached to your gear and seems to really fly in the face of crafters that don't make disposables. Why would I get a new sword if the one that I've been carrying since I started has so much affinity with me that I don't even care if I find some new weapon?
It sounds like very clumsy design if you have to keep coming up with contrived reasons to have crafters. Sometimes the simplest answers are the most elegant.
It would be easier to give the Devs better feed back if we had more detail. Giving us little scraps of information where our minds are left to fill in the blanks (very big blanks mind you) and our response is "meh" and you decide that the feedback wasn't helpful... That just leads to a breakdown in the system. The devs are inventivized to keep things as vague as possible so that pledges keep coming in.

It is getting close to the time to put your cards on the table. We are squabbling amongst ourselves because you're encouraging everyone to think that this is the game for them. I feel like I am already playing the game you're making I have no attachment to Britannia. I only have "well there's going to be a great story." I doubt that things will be worth the expense for a great story and more of the same. Please prove me wrong, Portalarium!

sent from the future using my Coleco Adam

 

I learned english playing Ultima 1... and I played every of them until UO came out, and I was also part of the elder seer team for a while (yes I was too young but I learned exeptional english skills through ultima, and knew the lore by heart, and was amazing at pvp, so they let me in) if that can clarify my intent to any degree because I'm not attempting to be mystical about my feelings. For a long while I "played" enemy roles to entertain people and enjoyed the fact that the community was alive to the DEEPEST degree. I can comfortably say due to the mystical nature of the experience that I was the stranger, the avatar that enjoyed accomplished destiny and infinite divine union of soul and spirit into time travel. And I was unique, the perspective is unique and cannot be reproduced.

*gets of high horse*

when UO came out, I wanted to be a knight of Lord British, but when I came to their door they kicked me in the streets and told me I was a noob (no roleplay), then to make a living I was forced to beg in the streets for months (learned to roleplay), until I got my first set of cheap armor where I could at least kill a rabbit without risking my life, then got pked (hard).

I started again and got pked (about 200 times lol, exagerating...), had to learn stealing and hiding cause I realised most people kept their reagents in one pile and if you stole black pearl usually you had a good chance of escaping the PK, this led to a server birth rare hunt which led me to fame and joining the seer team. Then a community formed around britain graveyard... then guilds formed, and community existed, even thrived, amongst ALL THE OPPOSITION. Communities that still last to this day... ahh the thrill of being stolen by a fake blacksmith and reporting his arse to a real community to make sure the whole world would give him hard time... the complex social twists that happened when you realised the same player had another avatar in the guild that hunted him. Having to spot the moles... all priceless dreams to a roleplayer, because it honors justice and all thats good in virtue regardless of the consequeces, cause we've got game at worse we lose the night having fun.

The roleplayer's creed being the forsaken virtues... an imperfect sparkle in a perfect gem, broken by error ; by none other than me.

Can you stand here with your smug smile and tell me that SotA would be utter chaos and that we'd be powerless to adjust things as they come ?

no you can't... especially now that you know where I come from and at least a part of who I am as a companion...