Thinking about pvp // full loot // karmastatus

Hi all. First I must say that english is not my born language, and I'm writting whit a Phone so it's probable that auto correction..

Anyway, I don' t really know if this post go here, but here it is hehe

I wanna talk about full loot first , because I have read about this and I found that only will be possible if all the players know and wanna it. Then, if we can choose to play multiplayer online or solo online what' s the matter? The one that don' t wanna loose his stuff, just play solo or whith his friends. I think that full loot it' s a great thing to consider, because it make that hardcore rpg players wanna participate in this games. And also it make the difference whith others mmorpg that actually the market offer to us. For what I know only Eve online and Darkfall unholy wars are full loot games.

About karma, Would be awesome that if you can kill anyone you meet in Novia , except in safe zones of course, it affect to our alignement with consequence like that killers can't enter in safe zones. Yes, im talking about the ultima online system , but it was so good to ignore it.

About pvp perse, we really need to switch on the pvp mode? It ' s like we are kids playing with scissors , that to cut something we need to call fathers to quit the safe mode.

Well , I think that I only say one important thing here and this is that you can switch the play mode with multiplayer or soloplayer, so the ones who wanna play multiplayer must know that he is enter in a hardcore mmorpg World. The others things exposed here im sure that others have said it

Thanks for read me.

Tupelo

P.D : anyway the game is taking a very good form , and Would be great playing it.

 

...And the rest of the players to stop playing.

You gain 1'000 players, and lose the remaining 99'000.

There's a reason why only UO and niche games like EVE and DF are full loot, and the overwhelming majority of others aren't.

You don't attract the huge mass of risk averse players by caving in to the tiny fraction of hardcore players, as every metric and statistic of this 20+ years industry has shown in every possible way.

And guess what? Relying on the cash brought by a niche player group in a niche system can't ever make up for the cash brought in by the bulk of non-hardcore gamers.

 

Welcome Tupelo!

Have fun to read this...
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/full-loot-pvp-and-stuff.23066/

 

Hi again

This idea sounds very nice, the one that Mata links before. I don´t know why when i searched full pvp in the forum searcher i didn´t see it. It´s probably the best thing to get all players happy.

Answering katrina, i believe that the people is comming to play sota it´s because that they played before any title of the saga so, we expect play something like that, not another mmorpg. And talking about population of the game, we really want ratkids or wow players? It´s a question of amount or quality? And i don´t believe that this game support a server with 15000 players online, like eve actually (not count the alters), and eve is dieing; just a question of map size or housing sites. And im sure that people that play eve almost played UO or heard about it, so number of players that like hardcore games is not a problem, i think.

Thanks for answer

Tupelo

 

*Sigh*

1) People coming to play SotA may very well include people who played Ultima I-IX. Do you remember any kind of PVP in Ultima? Thinking that SotA should cater only to UO diehard fanboys is one of the most widespread mistakes that a somewhat unclear KS campaign left lingering around. Not your fault, but a common one. If anyone comes here expecting UO2 in 3D, I can see why it's a disappointment.

2) If the WoW players pay as much as - if not more than - the diehard nostalgic fans? Sure! Where I should sign? At peak, UO had ~200'000 subscribers (unofficial). At peak, EVE has 500'000 subscribers. At peak, WoW had 12'000'000 subscribers. If you were a business, what you'd aim for? It's a question about quality, but without quantity, you can't have quality. Deal with it, because catering to hardcore's only in 2015 is pure suicide. If anything, WoW is an evolution of UO, building on Origin's pioneering MMORPG and expanding tremendously the extremely limited playerbase that accepted psychos killing and looting them left and right. I want another evolution, not an involution.

3) I don't know the raw data, but the heavy instancing of scenes is a great way to scale player population massively, and never worry about that, given enough hardware. It's by design, after two decades of vertical scalability problems and solutions.

4) EVE has more than twice peak users than 15K (the average is just above 22K), but they also instance local systems - over 7500, actually. The most players on a single server machine was 4068 - and I was there, during the battle for 6VDT-H in Fountain.

5) EVE is dying since 2004. I stopped believing in its "death" one decade ago. You should, too.

6) UO players and EVE players somewhat overlap, I agree. I found a lot of capsuleers here. But thinking that everything palatable to an EVE player automatically is good for a SotA player is naive at best.

7) SotA has an immense legacy to cater to. Full loot is just an aspect (looting) of a part (PVP) of one epoch (pre-split) of one version (online) of an awesome ecosystem that spawned 20 years and a dozen or so different titles. I'm glad that @Chris wants to give a glimpse of a time long dead and buried, but not at the expense of everything else the Ultima franchise (the offline one!) still has to offer.

I love this kind of civil debate.

Doing it once per month is becoming a tiny bit tiresome.

 

Hi

How do you wanna that we had pvp before UO?

I don´t wanna a 3D UO, i wanna a hardcore game. And i think that sota has evolved, too much, but don´t think that conserve some importants things is an involution. For example in the skill system, same liberty but you doesn´t pass nights with EasyUo, this is great, from my point of view.

I don´t think like a bussinessman because is not my bussines, i just wanna ask for something that like me, and i try because hope is the last that you loose.

Just mention Eve to show that there are many players that like hardcore games, if you wanna talk about "eve dead" we can do trough private, or ingame (Eve) hehe.

Anyway the question that i say here, is that you can choose to play solo online (where you can play with your party), or multiplayer online, and then you can choose your risk when you play. So i don´t really know what´s is exactly the matter to make it a full loot. Tell me if you don´t wanna enjoy that when you die while you do some pve, you must run to ressurrect in the ankh while you are a phantasm to later run to loot your own corpse, for example.

For last i expect that i don´t sound aggressive while talking, how i say im not good with english. And again, thanks for answer, most when you are tired of talking about the same.

Tupelo

Fly safe

 

Welcome Tupelo.

I think I understand what you are saying. You want the risk vs reward for multiplayer online correct? There is going to be that in some senses. However the game has to be consensual and will be consensual combat only. It is in the terms of the kickstarter and cannot be changed. There is some good news though. There will be many pvp towns and pvp areas that people have opted into. Some will be limited looting but there will be other areas that Chris (the tech director) has mentioned that there will possibly be full loot pvp. In addition there are players that want full loot pvp in their pvp towns. So you might be out of luck on the world wide full loot pvp, but there will be places that will have it, hopefully. But like I said, in this game there will be no "sheep", only people that have consented to the pvp flag.

 

Welcome Tupelo!

 

Hi

Thanks for explain it to me Ravicus, sounds good. But in the case that it´s shown in the mata´s link : https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/full-loot-pvp-and-stuff.23066/

You also must be flagged for pvp? In that case there are no criminals in the game? without that ones that steal something?

Tupelo

 

I hear you, the hardcore crowd is amazing at how dedicated they are.

Still, my point is that it's numerically next-to-irrelevant group, if one wants to cater to large numbers of customers, and thus have access to large amount of resources. Industry shown time and again that there are far, far, FAR more risk averse players than hardcore gamers. And in 2015, gearing the entire multiplayer experience toward such a diminutive sample is sort of business suicide. I don't mind full loot - wouldn't be playing EVE for eight years straight and three fanfest (four next year!) if I wasn't ok with high risks for high rewards. After you lose your second carrier, it goes somehow downhill from there...

But again, even if the consensual opt-in may seem a watered down option, it's infintely better than a total U-turn to cater to a tiny fraction of nostalgic tryhards. Unfortunately? Maybe, but that's it.

o7m8

 

All this has been covered Add nauseam in MANY other threads,

The will NOT be full loot so please just DROP IT NOW. Needs to be moved to PvP forums

Sorry that you might not have seen it since you are new but there are MANY threads already beat to death about these topics.

 

Ok, Ok.

Sorry for break you peace guys

And katrina, you are right, is better a bit than nothing.

And thanks to explain that bit to me, i expect that finally we can enjoy it.

Tupelo

 

If there should ever come full loot there has to be at the same time perma death, if you kill a frind or rob him, i want a punishment for that. And perma death where the other player would had to start from beginning would be more than fair, but than there would complain somuch peaple about it

 

Hello Tupelo.
What it really comes down to, after debate after debate after debate, is that EVERYONE seems to think that multiplayer online is a great thing, and the PvE players who don't want to be looted, or even forced to deal with PvP, would be just as willing to offer you the chance to "just play with your friends" when you want PvP. The decision was to give PvP hardcore players the ability to flag into a selectively instanced world where everyone had consented to that world, not necessarily to being a room full of wolves, but EVERYONE who likes that world. Meanwhile the players who hate hate hate that kind of gameplay can, with a few quick option settings, prevent themselves from even having to know it's going on, let alone getting jumped by opportunistic PKs.

Now if only we didn't have to gather together into this Dead-Horse-Beating-Society every time another hardcore PvP player joined the forums. If only there was a way to post a sticky thread for new people to read...

 

Thanks for a new spark in the everlasting flame of pvp and full loot :-D There is only few of us who defend this point of view and every soldier counts :-D

- But seriously there is a lot of good arguments from the other side of the river not to implement this.
- I counter them with reasoning that from my standpoint of view this could happend only in designated zones where nobody is forced to participate
- The counter argument standpoint of view is usually based on disslike that every player would not be "able" to go everywhere in the game, that we (HC pvpers) would block the way on the map and that we are forcing our way to somebody (???)
- To my last question to other side of river regarding "good game experience" I did not get answer yet

- I saw great solution in Runescape this week (which I was missing so far *duh*) where there are multiple servers with different rules configuration - like pve only, pvp, hardcore full loot pvp

- So far to proposed solution by devs I read somewhere here in forum was that there would be a loot roll only on one item from bag or gear. There would be fee in gold you could pay not to get looted this way

The truth is, that there is hell lot of people so affraid that they would be constantly zerg ress killed once thy step out of the safe zone...

 

I'm not worried about full loot........I know it will end up being in the game in one form or another........I'm really excited about it and it will be amazing.

The main challenge is to draw in the crowd who are really interested in it, that means combat needs to be fast, fluid and exciting.......I am still hopefull.

 

The sad thing about this 1000 vs 99 000 argument - it is counterproductive thinking if you want something new, something unique, or something different or innovative.

I was under the impression that Shroud of the Avatar is not trying to be a game for the Mass. It was supposed to be a game for all the Ultima Fans that have ever existed.
It is made for us the Fans , a successor of the games we loved.

But! Also the early lovers of Ultima Online should be included. And there have been many of us.

I would like to argue that we are not 1 % vs 99% like in your example. I would argue that the Ultima Online lovers of the Early Years are a important number and should not be ignored. I asume we are at least 10% of the total of Ultima and Richard Fans for sure.
10% is not a number you just ignore.

Just an example. Albion Online is made from Fans who are from that Ultima Online Pre Trammel Time Era. You can see it on the complete design of the Game. Reminds alot on the early years of Ultima Online and the existance of the Full Loot within the game.


Listen from 1:25 - ( Developers directly honor early years of Ultima Online)

Ok. It has only a Community of 20 000. But they did reach that without a big name behind it like Richard Garriott. It is not a Mass Game, but it attracts directly the Pre Trammerl Fans and they even state in the interview if you listen to it that they refer to the Early Ultima Online Times.

Just like Life is Feudal , Albion Online consist of Game Developers who are most inpired by the "early years of Ultima Online".

You can´t ignore that there must have been something very unique about these short early years Ultima Online had, that we have now 2 Games being developed honoring this special short MMO Time of absolut freedom.

And the Developers of Ultima Online should take this as a compliment and a pride that the early years of Ultima Online inspires even today new young generations of Game Developers to go this direction again!. Even if it did not attract the Mass. EA made games for the Mass , Origin System made Games that are different and innovative.


I asume already this disqualifies the 1% vs 99% Argument very easy. We are more out there.

That being said, i agree with you 100% that we are a smaller faction then mass. And it is a very big challenge to include us without loosing others. So most scare away of it.


But Mass is not Ultima, not Shroud of the Avatar, not what i think what SotA wants to be. It is something different, something trying to go a new way with Selective Multiplayer and with Player Housing and Economy without Shards. And they want to include a Full Loot System for some of the game . And i find that awesome. A sign we are not Mass!

So sometimes it is better to ignore the "Mass" and focus on "what game you want to make".

 

I put a pledge in on Albion and I have to say it has so much potential it's scary. Yes it appeals to the pre Trammel fans......but then add building towns, upgrading builds, farming, collecting resources over time etc etc etc......... If/when this launches on tablet is has the real chance to be massive.

 

And i am very Proud, total Stolz, that it is a Game made from my Country: Germany!

Well until the next big U.S. Cooperation comes and eats it . ( grin)

 

https://albiononline.com/fr/founderpacks

Real sandbox, i like and i back. Thanks for the info !!! Talking to my friends !!!