Use Based systems

To each their own, I suppose. I think it's a fantastic game overall, but the leveling system irks me so much, that I rarely play it.

 

Surely you aren't suggesting that this is going to take up so much of you're actual play time over the haul to be a serious issue? Just what percentage of you're actual play time do you expect this to take up over the next few years? You visit the trainer once for a skill.. and then the agony for you is over.

If you have to learn this through trial and error in real life.. you're probably already dead. and just to nitpick a bit.. a true riposte is anything BUT defensive.. it's actually quite aggressive and offensive.. it's the parry that sets up the riposte that's defensive. I'm not saying it can't be done.. especially if you're sure to come back to life (how unrealistic is that?).. but most people wouldn't try to learn most of these skills through trial and error.. and as for study.. it's basically the same as seeing a trainer.. you're engaging in act of active learning in a controlled environment either way so from a game mechanics perspective there's not a lot of difference there.

 

Or you could not take my examples so darn literally. I mean really. If you honestly believe you can't learn new skills without instructions, I can't change your mind. What I can do is tell you that I have learned new skills without instruction many, many times in my life. My spouse is a professional web designer and learned nearly everything she knows without an instructor and most of it through trial and error.

And I AM suggesting that it will take up too much of my valuable play time to be an issue. I absolutely am saying that. I'll realistically have anywhere from 1 to 3 hours to spend on this game each week. Usually not all at once. Now, if I need to learn a specific skill or spell, but I haven't discovered a trainer who teaches it, I'm going to have to wander around a MASSIVE world, from town to town, interrogating npc after npc, hoping I find the guy who teaches what I need to know. I could easily spend my entire week's play time on this farce of a quest. I'd MUCH MUCH MUCH rather gain the experience and say: I think I'll learn this skill with that experience. Which will take all of 1 or 2 minutes of my time. And this is the far more important issue for me.

The "realism" argument is really a counter-argument, because whenever you say you don't like trainers, the immediate response is: "but it's realistic." That argument is subjective at best and utterly absurd at it's worst. The more important point for me is that using trainers is not fun. It's tedious. I HATE it. I will always hate it. And as of yet I have not seen one single argument about why it's a good idea that they should be mandatory. Not one.

 

When give an example as part of a realism argument...

Never said that. Never implied that. What I'm saying is that most people under normal circumstance.. with the skills we're talking about.. it would not be uncommon to seek out instruction as learning on your own would be an unrealistic expectation. I never said it couldn't be done. The larger point being that as is.. within the limits of game mechanics, having to see a trainer to initially unlock a skill isn't such a horrible thing in the grand scheme of things.

Considering that with the 'old' system requiring a trainer for every skill level.. and that you'd have to find the trainers first anyway. I should think the current system is a vast improvement. With so little play time would you not just check a website for the trainer location? Easy alternative.. though I understand the choice not to the option is always there. At which point how much you choose to endure is up to you. And you're still only having to do it once instead of every skill level.

Well that just makes it sound like no matter how good the argument may be you'll refuse to accept it. Devs have their reasons and I'm pretty sure they believe they're good ones. I'm not going to tell you which features you should like or not like but isn't this a great improvement for you over what we had? At least you don't have to visit the trainers for every skill increase.

 

Yeah. I'm a little riled up right now, sorry about the tone. As for the last bit, if there are all these good reasons... what are they? Why can't we know? It might soothe me a little to hear why they think it's necessary at all. It's a mechanic I despise on many levels, so when it's included and the only argument for it is "realism," I get prickly.

 

so what precisely are you looking for instead of this?

i personally dislike the ideas of trainers too. but i understand the need for one. if you (or anyone, for that matter) can come up with a better idea, lets flesh it out and run with it.

simply taking them out, lowers the focus on certain skills to gain experience. doing that doesn't allow, i mean really doesn't, for the ability to get anything up to grandmaster level. everyone would be a general skillset and that would defeat the purpose entirely of a use based skill system. - so yeah, if we can come up with something that replaces the need for trainers while performing the same services to the players, i'm all for testing it out. i just can't think of anything at this point. maybe in r21-23 once we're acclimated to the use based system, we can come up with something that'll tweak it jussst right.

 

I like Jayson Browncoat's idea of a threshold on the skill below it. If you reach 50 in the preceding skill, you get the option to purchase the next skill in the tree. There could be an experience cost involved as well. If we feel the need to restrict where and when you can get new skills, I suggest meditation shrines ala Ultima 6. If you meet the requirements and have the requisite experience, you go meditate at a shrine and that opens up the skill advancement menu.

You could have trainers that let you get the skill with a lower threshold or for a reduced experience cost. Books could serve a similar function.

 

Hmm... This debate is mostly academic is it not ? The devs have mentioned in the past their intent to integrate the more advanced trainers into the questing nature of the game.

It will not always be as simple as walking into the middle of Ardoris and talking with Blackmoor to train up all your skills.

Eventually you might need to learn the legendary "Phoenix" spell from that wizened old master who resides at the top of the Mountain of Decay, or whatnot.

 

i like the above idea EXCEPT for what i just quoted.

take out the trainer, use the book instead. any training done, should be done by a player or something player created, like the book idea. - maybe the book gives you the basic, if you meditate within a couple hours of reading it, but before you actively use the skill, your base--skill-level is higher than if you just read the book and hare off to use it.. would require the avatar to think how to learn skills that way...if they're in a dungeon and quickly need it, to survive, they won't have time to meditate on it, but will have to work harder to master the skill in turn...but they'd get instant access to it.

this also allows for what i think the devs want - no avatar to be in a zero-state, and no avater to be cookie cutter like all the other avatars. or at least i HOPE thats their overall goal.

 

That is exactly my problem. If it stayed the way it is now, I'd grin and bear it, but having to find exotic trainers all across the world just to advance my character is exactly the tedium I want to avoid in my gaming experience.

 

I mostly threw that line in to satisfy the need for trainers. I could gladly do without them altogether.

 

Well... In that case, one of us is going to end up disappointed, I suspect.

 

You're right. And it will be me. Rest assured. My vision of what makes a good game seems to be distinctly different from that of the developers. I need to just sell my darn pledge, but somehow.... I can never bring myself to do it. Like if I just wait a little bit longer, it will turn into the project I imagined.

 

I think learning on your own should be possible, but the entire learning curve be 4 times longer.... or some such.

 

reminds me of something in guild wars 2. to 100% a map, you had to do all the quests, but find all the places too. none of that bothered me, until you had to literally walk the entire map and 'reveal' it. that was the feather that broke the camels back for me, and i was no longer a completionist in gaming. not sure why really, maybe it had to do with the fact that they decided to use that 'reveal' as content, instead of taking the time, care, and creativity to actually have content...*shrug*

 

I kinda like the use based skill advancement, as long as out of game time does not cause skill loss.

I too will play from time to time, and not for long blocks of time. That being said, I hope to be here for the long term, and don't mind slow steady growth. Just so that skill does not disappear when I take time away from the game.

 

Do you mean you would like to see a bigger tree? or only to Start then if you do a quest we might run into a character to make learn another more powerful skill or level of skill..I would find this to be cool..

What I did like about R20 "skills" is as we go we are in a manual control of increasing our skills compared to an automatic skill leveling up ( by means of using the skill ) " I do agree with it perhaps being to simplyfied ) and removes some of the fun..

However what we could do is have a basic training ( used based like R21 ) but also under certain conditions ( like after a quest and or when you reach a certain level ) you could meet a NPC character that would give you a special avanced skill ( under SUN or MOON or Pollarm etc..) OR you may find something somewhere ( like a book or scroll ) that would give you a new advanced skill...This would make doing the quest very valuable and fun if done right...It would be the best of both worlds..

So as you begin the game you start off with this " use base system" with the need for a trainer for certain skills but for advanced skills you must earn them or find them either in Quest from NPCs or Books,scrolls,puzzles, a different experience for each person depending on which direction ( choice of skills) you learn in the beginning of the game .

One thing I hope to see is an indication when we have leveled up a skill. ( perhaps not as eluminating as when you character levels up but something to visully tell us ).

 

Agree with that too-- what we could do is only count "Playing time" So if we log off. then decay stops,, but reactivates once we log back in into the game..This would be fair and make sense..

 

How about if you were to stumble on a scroll in a castle or in a abandond house that taught you the skill? This could be another alternative to going to see a teacher..

So there would be 2 ways of learning skills, either a teacher or findings the information..

 

hhmmm, perhaps there should be 3 ways to get these skills,( read the other post above ) as you go on quest or adventure you will eventually ( after you level up a few times ) get the "base skill" associated with the weapon your using.. as you continue and kill a few skeletons you pick up a shield - then you get the " Base Shield skill ", then if you kill a Mage that shoots fire then you will get the "Base Sun skill " , DO you see where I am going with this?
As you continue you level up as you use the skills ( used base system ).

This way you would get your wish while leaving the "used base system" intact and plus the added suggestion I made before ( above ) by adding way to find skills by ways of ( books,scrolls, NPC met during quest etc...)