Use Based systems

What I imagine is a simpler tree and an opportunity to learn elements after reading about them for example, and perhaps character comments regarding it in the journal, " I learned a bit about an element called fire today. Perhaps I should investigate further. The book says if I do x, y will happen, let me try. Also the book says...."

Well anyway I may not make sense of it for you and perhaps more will be added once we get the use based system balanced out.

 

Thats sort of what I posted in the other replies to post.. I like the fact that Chris does want us to follow the quest a bit more.. Though I do believe freedom in games and thats why I mentioned there should be more than one way to get skills.

1: By the mean of a teacher ( like now ) to get the Initial skill then Use based like in the direction the Devs are going into now.
2: By means of QUEST, inwhich we will be given a an Initial skill to defeat an enemy or get after the defeation of an enemy and also perhaps level up others skills.
3: By means of finding Scrolls,books, on the ground after a fight or in a building/house/shack et... ( Also related to 2: )
4: By the means of Experience, EG, If you kill a skeleton and pick up his/her Sheild then you may get the Initial Base Skill " Shield " If you fight and defeat a MAGE that uses fire then you will pick up the Initial Base Skill " Sun"

This way there is more than one way to skin the cat ( sort of speak ) and gives freedom to choose your own path which ever way you feel most comfortable playing the game

 

@Chris

So here's a thought.. understanding you don't want skill locks.. what about being able to prioritize which skills decay first? Like if we flag a skill to decay the system will decay those first (or more?). The net effect of decay is the same but we have a little more control.

Or do you feel setting skills to not train does more or less the same thing?

 

Hmm... How does that fit with the current implementation ?

My understanding is that all skills decay at some rate each day, with higher level skills decaying at a larger rate than lower ones.

It is not a "The system needs one point to increase Skill A, so lets take one point from Skill B to compensate" type of setup.

This was how UO worked, where you were only allowed a maximum of 700 points, and that point had to be removed from somewhere else to ensure that constraint.​

Rather it is a "You used Skill A, so let's increase it, but while we are it let's calculate the decay for Skill B and Skill C and Skill D, and apply it at the same time." type of system.

So, *all* the skills are decaying in the background, independent of each other, you simply only see the results when you increase another skill.​

So... I'm not sure how being able to prioritize the order in which Skills are decayed is going to help, since it doesn't really matter what order they decay to begin with.

 

It's about skill management and control. If the overall decay is the same.. but you can control which skills decay fastest.. it means you have to perform less maintenance on other skills.

 

I am loving this. Less maintenance and so much easier to handle.

Devs - Thanks for the change.

 

first thing i see is people gathered around the trainer spamming spells and attacking gustballs. this is exactly what i feared.

 

i have to agree. the added back-end complexity (thanks @Chris - a.k.a. Mathaman!) certainly does bring forward an inherent simplicity to the player.

i can already tell this is much better than the one attempted in another indie (scifi) game that is currently being developed (not sc).. they didn't go for the added layer of front-end simplicity.

 

*sigh* yeah, i think a tweak to only allow successful uses of the spell/skill against the "opponent" - be it a tree for crafting, a material for crafting, or a mob for fighting actually raise the skill level is gonna come in fairly quick if it isn't already implemented and we are stupidly casing those spells at the trainer with invisible devs sitting there, drinking mead, and laughing at us.

 

Hellos, salutations, and greetings! I'm a new face on the block, had my share of chuckles on Ultima online and a ton of other rpgs and finally came to the Shroud of Avatar scene.

When I first learned who was behind the curtain of SoA, I about lost it (Of course if I wasn't such a internet recluse I'd be here since it was first open to the public, le derp.) I instantly dropped forty five bucks and downloaded the client just in time for the swap from r20 to 21. Immediately in 20 I noticed all the wonderful underlining inspirations of rpg communities far and wide and found myself hooked. Traveling around, stabbing things with a sharp stick, cowering in the night along the road that you get distracted into seeing, only to realize the sound of wolves growling and the horrifying revelation that you left your battle axe with that tavern we- ahem. I personally have always been on the lookout for Ultima online 2, and finding SoA was christmas in the summer time. Already there is so much promise that I can't even sit in my chair for. That said, I do want to say my peace about the slight differences with the skills and whatnot for the new patch as well as some new things I noticed. Not everything added will be mentioned, mostly because I have no quarrel with them, so I'll stick to the main things.

Skill system: 9/10
I have always loved 'build as you use' skill systems for about as long as they have come around in mmos, and this latest patch meets just about every expectation possible. Of course me being the derpy one of the community, I had dropped a sick fortune into respeccing the night before which in hindsight was a huge mistake. Anyway, I am quite happy, though, that I woke up and noticed that my skills got beefy... quite beefy even with a new character. Magic skills got wiped, but no probs, you guys implemented a few new spells, adjusted the trees, and it works out fairly well, with my hair intact no less, thank you. That said, I want to list out the pros that I think are the best part of the new system.

• Learn the role you want to become in the world! This is what defines mmos in ways we gamers seldom actually pay attention to. The old system was in tandem with traditional mmos. Buy skill > Hotbar Skill > Use skill on a rabbit > Profit. While this is a decent system to use, it does not, however help players especially new guys and gals, learn how to flesh out their characters. Taking the time to unlock a skill, using it constantly, TRAINING it and yourself to use it in situations that best suit your play style count in so many more ways than just using a bloody skill. It teaches players how to be effective for guilds, pvp, and just about everything else.. In normal circumstances, unless you are an omniscient god, you can't drop some gold for knowledge of a skill that looks appealing to you out of the blue and expect to be good. It takes, time, blood, sweat, and tears of joy to build a character, and that sweet taste of accomplishment is all the more satisfying for a wizard that just became a master of his preferred school (Or all of them, if you are like me and LOVE magic), or a bladesmaster that perfected his defensive techniques.

• Pay and forget. Going back and forth to a trainer just to pick up skills can be a hassle, but now all you need to do is pay to unlock and you're set to go! Grab that new spell, head on out and start fireballing people.. Its just that simple and easy.

• It levels the skills of players versus pay to winners. As many mmos in the past have done and I cannot stress this enough, there has always been that hidden and underspoken problem of 'pay to winners' when it comes to skills and their use. And I don't mean subscribers or things like that. Example? Warrior A is about level 30 decent gear, going merrily on his way. His skills are mostly tanky, and can fend fairly well against other players. Mage B is level 20. He is a butt. He's coming over to rain on the warriors parade with a surprise attack from his summoned pet.. Okay, 10 levels under.. big woop says the warrior and smacks the skeleton back down into the dirt from whence it came.. barely broke a sweat. But he did get his shoes scuffed, so he's coming closer to the mage to 'pay' for it. Mage doesn't even flinch and casts lightning... okay, level 20 lightning... shouldn't be too- ZAP! Tanky warrior is no more.. just dust. How can this be? As it turns out, Mage B dumped about a grand of gold on behalf of his guild buddys into his lightning skills.. making his skill what should be only about a tickle to the warrior, is instead a tv dinner maker. On steroids. What's the moral of the story? Players should be defined by their skills as PLAYERS, not PAYERS! If a mage can whip your butt on the battlefield, it should be because he poured himself into his character, the same way a knight can take the damage and dish it out and laugh as he paints the wall with you. Firstly, pick your fights.. but second, characters that are trained and used well by the players deserve their ability to mop floors with other, more cocky types that think they can pour gold into skills and call themselves heroes. Keep the balance of whiners in check, but please do it in moderation.
• On a side note to the previous pro, I understand there's a number of people who absolutely hate skill grinding, but cmon... put the effort into your character.. we are not born gods.. we are people who have to work for our keep in the wide world. Wizards spent long times in their books and out in fields perfecting their magic.. swordsmans practice long hours slaying beasts.. craftsmans with their trades and so on. If you got a problem with it, uninstall the game and play something else.

Having said all those things, there is a slight hiccup I have with the skill decay. Conversely, its not a bad idea. It places a soft cap on skills, yes.. to the point that you can't be a grandmaster at everything. Let's be frank too, the way it slowly decays skills is not bad, not bad at all.. 40 day limit? I'm down with that... but what about other players, and if the devs are reading this they know exactly what I am talking about when I say sleepers.. Players that disconnect from SoA due to real life, and whatnot. Suddenly its been a couple years and those grandmaster level skills have fallen into a rut.. Fortunately I can forgive the decay system, were it not for but one thing and one thing only. The Exponential leveling. The main problem with that, is that you are not just losing a set amount of levels.. but also the time it took to get to those levels.. As it has been said in previous posts, at about 90-100 it takes quite a while to level up skills and maintain them there. For the casual gamer, they may be absent for weeks at a time which can turn to months on occasion. Suddenly that time seems wasted having to repeat the grinding for those levels again, especially with things like crafting.

Now all that stuff you grinded, made, and regrinded is lost, and it will take a long time before you get those reserves of supplies again in order to reach grandmaster level. That can lead to ALOT of frustration to veteran players that don't want to worry about when their combat or magic skills will decay, no matter how slow it may seem. They just don't want the stress of it and that is the poison that can erode those long term roleplayers that just love coming on to see the world they helped shape for the future. I'm not saying you should uproot the decay system that obviously took a long time to reach a decision, code and implement on, and I am also sure you have taken into consideration numerous, if not hundreds of times before that having this decay system may be benefactory or not.

But riddle me this: A veteran player has almost maxed his skills, suddenly he becomes a daddy in the real world and has to excuse himself for a while out of play.. comes back, and his skills go from 100, to 88 or even just 90.. doesn't seem like much until he remembers exactly how -painfully- long it took to reach those last ten levels. And now comes the lackluster of replaying. I ask you devs, if in the distant future you may consider letting the seasoned and dedicated players and community have their cake, and let them eat it too. Besides who doesn't want to master everything and be called a legend? (Wink wink, nudge nudge.)

I guess you can all that the cons of the skills system that I have. Is it a perfect and solid argument? Nope. Will it easily be shot down. Maybe. But you guys listen to feedback anyway, and it makes me happy to know that, even if most will likely not read my post. Next on the wall of text comes...Magic.

Ah yes, Magic. Like any good mmo, a good placement of magic can make or break a game. However, this is more than just a game. SoA is so much more than just a typical game. Its a roleplayers haven, and a really good time killer to spend with friends and even family. Warriors and archers, rogues, and thieves, squires and peasantry. People of all ages, natures, customs and whatever else all come together in one name. Shroud of the Avatar, and there has always been one black sheep of this entire family. The Mage. Most mmos write off the mage as an overpowered ho-hum spell slinger with very little chance of being anything outside its character depth as "I put on my wizard robe and hat, then fry you with my fiery balls!" (That is an actual quote, stop snickering.) I have always found magic to be much more when game teams much like the devs here with SoA take the serious time to refine their baby. And before questions are asked, yes... I am a D&D junkie, and most of this argument stems from that. With successful implementations outside of PnP came D&D online, and the wizard was suddenly viable again for players as not just the pyrotechnic hand of a pop culture referrence, but an intelligent individual that used their knowledge and wizardy ways to help the group in helpful, albeit odd, ways. Lets take a look at the spell, grease. Simple. Sets up a grease trap and slows opposition, much like the ice field spell in SoA. Hypnosis? Works just like moon and sun beams. Summoning spells are no difference. So what is my point? There are other spells, many underclassed as useless to most, but to a wizard player, are very constructive to have.. and can be quite entertaining too.

So a wizard in SoA wants to entertain a crowd in a tavern. He's been down for some cash for a while and begging or worse in the streets is not the best, nor wisest. I purpose (And of course in the far future, too much on the plates already), that said wizard be equipped with some dazzling skills. Just as bards entertain with song and dance, magicians should have a bit of fun with more obscure and seemingly useless spells. And I don't mean emotes, I mean actual spells. The spell Light in the Sun skill is a good example. Though the recent update's addition of damage resist is a nice touch, all it really does is summon a small light. To other people that use a torch, they pay no mind, but I'm giddy as a kid on halloween(favorite holiday) whenever I use that spell.. or night vision... or vanish. Utility spells. That's the key.

Prime example of utility spells may include magic to scry, remote viewing places around the world or even just in your current location, giving you a better insight into other areas of Novia and beyond. Next, perhaps you have a book that you want to conceal from enemies; like a book of transactions on the seedy underbelly of the docks, or maybe a personal letter or something vastly important? Have you friendly neighborhood wizard cast a simple spell to obscure or even block players from reading it, until either dispelled or the appropriate magic used to read it is cast upon it. Speaking of casting on objects, say thieving evolves further into crimes and punishment, (We all have that feeling its coming one way or another) and people suddenly develop the taste for homemade lockpicks.. simple enough to make a harder lock, but why not magically ward it from lockpicks? Speaking of wards, towns and friends can benefit from protective magic such as Warding, semi-permanent spells that have simple tasks, such as keeping intruders out, or alerting others, or even just to power other spells. From works of wonders like turning someone to turn or vice versa, or alchemic magic to help a fellow blacksmith when that work order for copper he asked was replaced with iron, magic can evolve into a diverse and helpful tool, even for just everyday use. Even the spells in ultima online used for getting around faster, for example to have mark and recall spells.. even a portal that would have to be channeled by the caster for and extended period of time just to be stable enough to go through. Even simple things like 'fireworks' and other impressive feats can be used for show, just to give flavor to the daily routine of communities.

On the subject, the big question then becomes: Well, if all this is added to wizards, this becomes harry potter and the wizard wars, right?
The answer? No. It doesn't have to be and magic is not for everyone. People have their own tastes.. some prefer not to touch magic, others can't get enough of it, obviously me included. Does that mean you have to conform to what other mmos do and write off magic as a staple of a combat system? Or can it be more? Just like melee and ranged users. Rangers and hunters can use traps to lure, snare and snap beasts in half, giving them increase use of their skinning skills, even have the option to camouflage themselves in the wild to hide from enemies. What of swordsman? Expand them beyond the normal limitations, have them become a learn more than just blades and blunts. Why not make a warrior than can use a chain to pull themselves to enemies or drag others away from the fight, why not have abilities to make them witch hunters and slayers of great evil? Maybe make them paladins or monks and change up the play order. Make melee as colorful as magic. Of course, it goes without saying too with this new system, that play styles like these are completely viable with the freedom outside of skill levels and buying your way to the top. But again, with all this possible content, it makes you rethink the decay, heh.

One thing I NEVER want to see changed is the Reagents.. Wizards have to have a limit on magic, and it can't be solely through focus. One thing I do love about the spell system is the mid tier spells are costless. THAT right there is an instant winner in my book. The devs didn't get stingy when they came up with that, and a round of applause again for it. Digressing, magic needs to have a bit of control when it comes to the use.. how much .. when to and so on. And for the most part, the devs have that down pat. One thing I would also recommend and it fits up in the previous statements somewhere, is Channeling. This can be done in any number of ways. Bopping holes in reality can be draining.. and making things like portals to your friends home takes alot of focus to achieve. For those kinds of spells, I would like to suggest instead of reagents, that the 'portals' require constant streams of focus to maintain and keep open. That is to say, if you have a party and you are on the other side of the world thanks to a moon rift, how else will you get back to town? Fight back all the way through the hordes you just slayed with your healer about dead? Nooo. Have one of your buddies cast a spell and open a way home. Of course, make it interesting, say the longer he remains channeling the portal the longer it can stay open. That way, there is still time for him to slip across when the rest go through. This of course can also be applied to say glyphs and wards. If you need a moment of rest, and the other members of your party are not healed up, have a mage throw up (not literally) a spell of protection, or a barrier.. maybe even group invisibility until you are rested. Semi-solid things like that drain as well, but there can also be ways to reduce the focus drain too.


Alright.. that's all I got until I do editing. About burnt up with what I wrote so far, but again, thank you very much for the new update. Great work and success overall! Think I'm going to go make rabbit corpses explode for experience.. Ta ta!

 

Hmm... So your thoughts are something like this ?

1. Take Skill A at Level 80, and Skill B at Level 40
2. Apply a "I want Skill A to decay slower while Skill B decays faster" toggle
3. Now Skill A has a reduced rate of decay, while Skill has a heightened rate of decay

Interesting proposal. I would buy that for a dollar.

 

Just saw that when I posted, I see your post and point and yeah, it makes sense.. alot. But that is where the fun comes into play. Now why we gather around the trainers just to practice.. no idea.. I was in town to get a new skill, chat with people, roam with the crowd and ground a little while I chatted specs with another guy, but its just a bystander thing.. We wizards need to go out to the EDGE of town.. and just practice in quiet peace away from other player's eyes.. like actual magicians, instead of becoming eyesores and causing a scene. I myself will try to find one of the MANY empty towns that for some reason have no foundations to where I can rent property at and train there.. in peace, quiet and magic. Besides, devs can chuckle all they like, they made the update anyway. Be happy they pay attention at all, since most mmo gms seem to shrug off the little guy. (Most of them, anyway)

Also, more on your post... what some people don't realize and I keep telling them, some of the spells actually DO have to have a target (If you ever see people casting death touch at thin air... tell them to stop and find a mob to kill with it. Same with corpse explosion and others.) The only reason why they spell grind is with the healing spells.. and let them.. afterall, those skill grinders you see today, could very well save your life tomorrow when you are being nommed by spiders.

 

having to cast light to get sun innates makes having a light-enchanted object worse than useless.

 

The effect is only temporary. Eventually those players will expend their entire Adventurer Experience pool, and need to head out and kill something to gather more.

It is simply a problem because we all started this release with *all* the experience we had accumulated in the prior release, and there is some mad rush to use it all.

 

Personally I find it so much more entertaining and satisfying right now to earn my skills in the field.

 

Totally agree. Watching the Yellow Highlight constantly pop up is quite exhilarating.

Only problem is I really need something to remind me when a new tier of skills unlocks. I'm always forgetting to go back into town now.

 

I actually feel like I want to play more now.. before it was like.. ok.. I want to do X, Y and Z today but I only want to play W hours.. now I just want to play.. There's so many skills I can work on at once I'm even happy to fight lowly grey wolves.. and one of the best things is.. the XP I get is not dependent on the kill. I still gain a little something out of every fight without feeling like I'm wasting my time and tracking every little bit of XP waiting to level and worrying about if I'll have enough skill points to go to the trainer or not.

 

@Chris, thanks. Combat is a lot more enjoyable. Have a beer or 10 on me!

 

no, i'm tracking every little bit of progress on skills i don't want to see if i have enough prerequisites to go to the trainer to get the skills i actually want.

 

For a skill one time.. or for every level for so long as you play..