Use Based systems

I would count pvp as going on an adventure, just differently.

 

Thanks for the bullet points version Chris.

I for one don't have any issues with the plan... slow skill decay... visiting a trainer... exponential skill growth... possibly being able to lock a skill.

All sounds good to me... nice work.

 

Just a comment about earlier comments regarding not being able to learn skills without a trainer. Consider for a moment the types of skills you're actually learning. No one goes out and picks up a sword and becomes a master just by swinging it around. If you want to learn martial arts for example you don't just start getting into fights. You go find yourself a dojo or sensei and learn the basics first.

There are very few skills we learn in life without first learning something from others. So while I sympathize with the idea that we should be able to pick up skills on our own.. there are very, very few skills currently in-game where we wouldn't naturally seek out basic instruction in first.

 

So what is the mechanic or design goal that makes trainers necessary for unlocking skills? Is it for a gold sink? Is it to force players to explore the map to find certain skill trainers? I ask about mechanics and design goals, because there has to be some other reason aside from limiting how many skills at level 1 you have. Because, this training system currently only does that.

It would make more sense to me to make people seek out a trainer if they want to exceed a certain threshold, like 75. I posit that you can't become a master without finding a master, but anyone can swing a sword, rake a garden, or hammer metal.

 

The focus penalty has been gone on locked glyphs since they changed the combat decks this release (R20).

 

I was/am still getting focus penalty in r20 for my locked glyphs.

 

Sounds like a neat idea. Perform tasks with a skill that your beign trained in base don what the trainer tells you to do in order to learn it. hold your hand over a flame to buld familiarity with the feel of casting a fireball, journeying to a meaniful place where a lich resides and aquiring control of it, etc.

 

Will there be some outward indication to the player that the amount of experience points in the pool is not sufficient to increase a skill?

 

As with every wipe, I got my PVP flag at lvl50 and won't turn it off unless required for some event. That's about as much as I "worry" about it.

I don't "worry" about PVP at all. I enjoy it, I come from EVE, and my first videogame was Combat for Atari VCS: PVP only! ...If anything, I'd prefer more non-consensual occasion to PVP, like shardfalls or PVP POTs.

Still, whenever there's any kind of PVP in a game (there are also games without *any* PVP, you know), that kind of inter-human competition guarantees that min/maxing is not only an eventual option and remote possibility, but the only gaming metric for the most involved people to measure their pe...*cough*...rformance!

 

For every example that fits your version, there is a counter example where certain techniques are learned almost exclusively on your own, from experience. I was a soldier. You can learn all the basics about firing an M16 through training, but you will come up with all kinds of techniques for using the weapon in real combat, by yourself purely from experience. The same holds for any martial art. You learn many techniques in the dojo, but you learn real-life lessons that can completely change how you fight, by being in a real fight.

I'm not against the idea that trainer can you teach you stuff. That makes perfect sense. I'm against the idea that a character can NEVER learn a new skill without instruction. That is utterly ludicrous. People learn new skills every day, all over the world without the benefit of an instructor. Trainers should be optional. A shortcut to unlocking skills, not a gateway.

 

Except we're talking about very specific skill sets.. not abstract techniques invented from knowledge of those skills and while I sympathize with the notion it really isn't something that has a huge impact on how we play.

 

I disagree with both of those statements. Riposte? Dodge? You can definitely learn these things on your own. The idea that you can only learn them from a trainer is preposterous.

It has a huge impact on how I play. In a trainerless scenario, I level my character as I see fit, when it is appropriate. It's simple and it's fun. In a trainer system, I wander around talking to endless NPCs looking for the right trainer, hoping they have the skill I need and NOT leveling at all if they don't. I find immensely un-fun, tedious, AND unrealistic.

 

Well I have to say I am more for not having a trainer per se' as we have them now and if we must just train the element not the possible skills attached to it, those would come with progression which gains you knowledge of the element such as fire for example. I think there would be more depth and interest in the system. I think if we don't suggest interesting scenarios then we won't get them. Sure I will play with as is, but I will continue to wish for more dynamics to what goes on around knowing the elements that are used during combat, and hope that includes use during crafting and environmental things such as climbing, sitting, dancing, swimming etc. Perhaps enchanting with fire is not as effective if we know little about the element of fire. Perhaps as mentioned we don't know how to dodge if we havent done other combat moves that show us more possibilities.

 

Im with bowen on this. you still needed to be taught how to use a rifle first before you could adapt/modify said skills with use of real life situations. As with most things in real life when some new skill is created its usually from adapting/modifying an existing skill you have learnt. Though not that im a great fan of now the only use for a trainer is to gain first lvl of a skill.

 

I'm in favor of decay!

 

And nearly every skill on the tree, for which you must visit a trainer, is an adaptation or modification of a base skill. So by your logic I shouldn't need to visit a trainer. I should be trained in the basic use of how to swing a sword with some efficacy, but I may learn, through trial and error how to do so more defensively (riposte) or how to do so more quickly (double slash) or how to use my sword against multiple targets (whirling blades). But as it is I DO have to visit a trainer to learn these things.

Anyone claim that you CANNOT learn a riposte or a blade whirl or a dodge without a trainer is ridiculous. Could I learn them better or more quickly with the help of a trainer? Probably. Could I learn these things from study, experience, and/or the school of hard knocks? The answer is categorically: yes!

 

There will be other ways to train, eventually, other than going to a trainer. They've talked about them in older hangouts.

• Other players (with 101+ skills) might be able to train in that skill
• You might be able to read a book to unlock a skill
• Completing a quest might unlock a skill

If I wanted to add a "school of hard knocks" way to unlock skills, it would be this:

• You can't learn the base level yourself, either ready about it (study) or seek basic instruction
• Once you've reached a certain threshold for all required skills (say, 50), the skill unlocks
• All skills unlocked, except through training (i.e., books & hard knocks), begin at 0 and are set to not train

This makes it so you can still advance through the skill trees, and naturally get better, but it doesn't force anyone to use those skills unless they choose to do so. Also, reading books is not hazardous to your adventuring style.

 

Some cool ideas in here.

 

you know what kept me going back to ES:Oblivion, enough times to kill two xbox 360's, and 3 game discs, over a year and a half's time? the skill system coupled with the leveling system. a huge part of it was the ability to learn the systems and how they interacted with each other. the back-end complexity grew to a front-end simplicity that was just wonderful together.

know what ELSE kept me going back for that long? the musical score. my son's first year and a half was that and the star wars musical scores (he had colic, they were the only things that would get him to stop crying lol). he's much older now, and he still smiles when he hears the first three notes of the opening sequence to that game, or the imperial march. he still hums the tunes to himself from time to time. *chuckle*