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Update to the Darkstarr Moondial!

Discussion in 'Developer Work and Blog posts' started by Scottie, Oct 7, 2016.

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  1. Scottie

    Scottie Master Artisan SOTA Developer

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    Long ago Stephen Daniele created numerous sketches for a special type of orrery we were wanting to offer called the Darkstarr Moondial... Back then, though Richard and Starr both really loved the idea of this kind of cool decoration, we hadn't yet had the chance to fully develop our cosmology and astronomy, and so we had Bob create a beautiful placeholder based on Stephen's concept art, knowing we'd eventually have to go back and change the final 3-D art to match what our sky-scape would become.

    Now that we have finally nailed down the basics of what heavenly bodies exist for our world, and essentially how we want them to move, the time has come to update our old efforts to reflect them! Not only was I able to take Bob's excellent work and maintain it as a basis, but I was also able to update the material and textures a bit to take the most advantage of some of the recent improvements in the Unity shaders! Here's what the updated Darkstarr Moondial orrery now looks like!

    [​IMG]

    The earlier version had only three lunar bodies moving around Novia, not including the sun and the shattered moon...so we had complete orbital rings rotating around the old Novia sphere in wildly different directions that didn't even match the actual orbital plane of rotation around the planet... Now I've added all eight of the additional heavenly bodies representing the "anti-virtuous acts", and they all rotate correctly around Novia along the same broad orbital plane as the sun... The great serpent now rises up through the empty path that the lost moon that shattered our greater moon once traveled. (I'll add as an addendum here that I'm currently unsure whether this will actually replace the old Moondial version, or whether it will be merely offered as an option for those that would like to have an updated, astronomically accurate model... Some folks might want theirs to remain the way it was, and Portalarium Management will need to decide how they'd like to handle this... ^_^)

    The off-kilter crescent-shaped circular arcs piercing the moons are at varying angles compared to the greater orbital plane, and though they don't describe the actual path of the moons around Novia (since all the moons have now been established as rotating upon the same orbital plane around Novia as the sun does) the arcs DO whimsically represent the fact that each of those rotating bodies has its own individual axis around which it spins in place as it orbits, and that axis is offset from the angle of the greater orbital plane by a factor of degrees (unique to each moon). Those arcs pierce perpendicularly through those various different lunar axes. For the sake of this moving model (as with our actual sky-dome), each of the moons orbits at a different speed (which might eventually match the actual speed of the real moons in-game), which causes the offset arcs to create beautiful, constantly varying configurations that one could imagine describe the greater firmament and its hidden constellations in some arcane manner. Here you can see the moons all having rotated a bit at different speeds, exposing different patterns while still remaining on the single orbital plane.

    [​IMG]

    Eventually Finn will be tasked with trying to match the speed of the actual heavenly bodies in-game, so that special conjunctions and lunar locations can be recognized and enjoyed even if it's broad daylight! Though I must admit, I really like the look of it animating more swiftly as it is now, so that it looks like a beautiful piece of slowly swirling kinetic sculpture.... Perhaps there will be the option of either having it move at fast speed, or reconfigure to show the actual lunar locations at their current speed, merely by clicking on the orrery itself! I'll suggest it and see what they say!...

    Anyway,...enjoy! I stayed late getting this done because I'm off to ACL Fest tomorrow!

    Have a great weekend!

    Scottie ^_^
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
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  2. Acred

    Acred Avatar

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    I am stunned at the beauty of it, @Scottie , but I think I shall need a university course to understand it. You are amazing!

    Have a great time at the ACL Fest. :D
     
  3. lollie

    lollie Avatar

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    I'm glad you're here Scottie, you clearly love your work and the beauty of the things you create shows this :)
     
  4. Scottie

    Scottie Master Artisan SOTA Developer

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    Thank you so much!!! Although I must give most of the credit to Stephen Daniele for originally creating the concept, and to Bob Cooksey for his wonderful initial creation of the model and texture, which I then updated to contain all the new moons and the extra details...

    Fun stuff!

    Scottie ^_^
     
  5. lollie

    lollie Avatar

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    Yeah the team did a great job on the moondial, such a beautiful thing :3
     
  6. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    This is absolutely stunning Scottie. Thank you so much for your hard work and dedication to the game. This is what will make this game stand above the rest ;) Have a terrific time and get some much needed rest I'm sure ;)
     
  7. Leelu

    Leelu Avatar

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    That is really a beautiful piece of work.
     
  8. Alexander

    Alexander Avatar

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    Looks really nice. Looking forward to seeing this in game when it's done.
     
  9. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    This does make a beautiful model, Scottie! Very nice!

    I am surprised that the moons are all offset as much as they are. The current night sky, which @Bowen Bloodgood has several posts on, just seem to orbit in the same arc of the sky. So hopefully if the timing of the moondial are adjusted to match the sky, the rotation in the sky can be adjusted to match the moondial!
     
  10. Drocis the Devious

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    This is an area that I hope the team can really improve on in the future. As a fan, there was really no way for me to know that the moondial we've had for almost 3 years was a placeholder. There's probably some good reasons for that. 1. You guys don't want to over commit by telling us that it's "only going to get better" and setting yourself up for people saying "when are you going to make the moondial look better?" 2. As experienced developers you may take for granted that this is clearly a placeholder and assume "of course everyone knows this!" 3. The team is busy and telling people what is or is not a placeholder is not your primary concern.

    Whatever the case though, I see this lack of communication (not just with the moondial but with most assets and game functionality in general as a self inflicted wound. I believe most players would gladly concede that it makes sense in retrospect that the moondial was a placeholder, both aesthetically and functionally. But that's after we've heard it from the horses mouth. ;)

    So what I'm trying to say is that we've had 3 very long years of placeholders and before we put more into the game I would recommend that the development team find a better way to communicate what is or is not a placeholder so that the average fan can appreciate the game for what it is, while looking forward to what it's to become. In the case of the moondial it's really a great testament to Steven and Bob that I (and I assume others) were very satisfied with the look and feel of the original moondial and probably weren't looking for it to be upgraded. (though I'm really glad it has been because it looks fantastic!)

    QUICK QUESTIONS:

    What's the deal with the incomplete arcs for some of the moons? Do they simply go to a point and then reverse to move back down the same path? If yes, I like this, it's very unique and interesting.

    Can you tell us what the 8 anti-virtues are? I know there's a wiki that has them listed, but I'm not sure if these are official for our game or not.
     
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  11. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    I believe Starr said last year (or earlier this year) it would be updated. The sky being in the state that it is.. granted it's come a long way visually but near as I can tell they haven't addressed the issues with mechanics at all.. yet.

    So this new model does make me wonder if the orbital paths of all the planets will eventually change as the difference in the actual sky and the moondial itself are pretty significant. My understanding has always been that the moondial a useful tool but as it stands currently it's just a very pretty decoration. The sky will need to match if it's to be useful.
     
  12. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    All of the moons have incomplete arcs, but from the two images it appears the moons are always centered and the whole arc rotates. The only solid ring is the sun.

    As far as the anti-virtues, only one has been mentioned by Starr is "Deceit", in the Release 18 Instructions. I believe later this was noted as a placeholder, and may be changed before they are all revealed.
     
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  13. Drocis the Devious

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    My point wasn't to say that there was an absence of communication. My point was to say that the communication was fragmented, incomplete, open to interpretation, and the result of that communication was a negative to the game in my opinion.

    I'm writing this for the devs benefit, by the way. I get the impression that the development team often thinks of communication with the fans as an after thought to the development process. First comes internal discussion, then comes internal consensus or agreement, and then after it's been generally decided that through the course of normal development team interaction that something is a "first iteration" or a "placeholder" for example, then that moves on its natural path into the game. At some point, a developer (usually Starr or Chris) might mention it in a hangout or write about it on the forums, or perhaps we'll see some brief notation in the daily stand up notes. But we as fans are almost always left to consider if what we read, hear or experience in the game is "finished" or just the very beginning of what's to come. I find that to be extremely frustrating and I'm one of the people that understands that this is not being done purposely to achieve some kind of a negative impact.

    I believe what the developers should be striving for, and should challenge themselves to do more frequently (especially now that weren't in a persistent state) is to communicate more openly about where these systems and assets are (current state) relative to where the development team intends for them to be (future state). I understand that form of communication is not "cheap" and it requires an attention to details that are likely to change frequently. But in the case of the moondial, would it have been difficult to archive somewhere that it was a placeholder? Maybe even put a mouse over on it that reads "placeholder art, placeholder functionality"? I don't think it would, and doing that would put the items current verses future value into perspective.

    At some point, we're going to have to start communicating better than we are now as we get closer to launch. Right now I see the type of communication we have as very adhoc and secondary, but once the game officially launches I believe we'll need more structure and more official communication streams that make it very clear where we're at and where we're headed. I don't think it will be acceptable to (for example) have an agriculture system that isn't clearly defined, or a combat system that is constantly having it's numbers fudged, or houses that get unannounced rework, or changes to changes that were unexpected and uncommunicated.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that we're very flexible and willing to make changes (the moondial changes are great!) I'm just saying that the way those changes occur and the expectations of what will change and improve are largely hidden from view in any meaningful way, and I think that will prove increasingly harmful to the game as it evolves.

    My hope is that the developers consider what it means to be in development, and what it means to have "dev/ops" and they begin to separate the two. I don't know if they believe that can happen (developers in general rarely do) but at some point there should really be more of a communicated expectation that's more robust and less "surprise!" than what we have right now, the moondial being a good example of that. I think we all should've known that it was planned to be reworked. I think we all should've known a lot more about what it's functionality would be, how that functionality is intended to fit into the grand scheme of crafting, combat, the story, etc...

    There are a lot of moving parts to this game, and I'd like to start understanding how they're intended to work with one another, and stop "guessing" or "figuring it out" month to month. Yes, it's fun to figure things out, and yes it's a common forum past time to guess what's going on, but as I play more I have less time for this type of activity. I'm not trying to suppress the agile nature of the development, but I feel as though the communication should start being more structured and more thoughtful and MUCH MORE revealing so that it's easier to know what's intended design and what's not.

    I feel that the closer we are to this goal the more likely we are to get better bug reports, more meaningful feedback, and a happier customer base.
     
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  14. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

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    Are we going to be able to buy this on the add-on store?
     
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  15. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    There was a teaser about Shadow Lords in relation to roving encounters in a standup! *gets excited all over again* Also, i loved my moondial, but now i love it more.
     
  16. ThurisazSheol

    ThurisazSheol Avatar

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    seeing this moondial is what made me upgrade to an account that had the darkstarrr rewards.. i'm so happy to see it get even more love than before. thanks scottie!
     
  17. Scottie

    Scottie Master Artisan SOTA Developer

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    Browncoat Jayson has it right... The incomplete arcs are incomplete because they do not represent the movement paths of the moons, they are artistically meant to represent the angular tilt of each moon's own individual axis as compared to the plane of orbital rotation around Novia... My decision to do this came from several experiments desperately attempting to preserve the beautiful gyroscopic "roundness" of the earlier design (created by the completely incorrect orbits of those three old moon depicted in the old Moondial), while simultaneously representing the now completely flat plane of rotation of ALL the new heavenly bodies around our world... The moons in the model don't move along those arcing curves, they actually move in perfectly nested, invisible circles on that single larger plane described by the larger, unbroken "sun path" hoop around Novia. The planes described by those whimsical curves intersects the axis of each individual moon at a right angle, to illustrate that the real moons of our cosmology have individual axes that don't just stick up straight from the orbital plan, but instead angle off from it by a number of degrees. The Earth, for instance, has an axis that's tilted to some degree compared to the plane upon which it orbits the sun... If the earth had a giant ring around it extending from its equator, you'd see it "pass through" the sun's orbital plane at an angle, just like you see those arcs pass through the plane of sun's flat orbital path around Novia in the Moondial...

    But with our game's astronomy we're able to take advantage of the fact that Novia perpetuates a geocentric orbit, where all the moons as well as the sun rotate around our world's center... Our "firmament" is like the old, outdated concepts of our world, in that a "celestial dome" or "sphere" actually surrounds the world containing all the heavenly bodies and constellations... Being "self contained" in that way allows me to take a bit of whimsical license and add flourishes like those arcs to compliment Stephen's and Bobs design, maintain some "rounder" motion and shape to the whole piece (since all the old orbits that once "rounded it out" must now fall on the sun's flat plane), while STILL representing (at least conceptually) the actual current cosmology of our world...
    Despite your concerns, I really appreciate the compliment about the new look of it... I'm glad you like it! ^_^

    The important thing to take away from all of this is that me unveiling these changes that Richard asked for (and talked openly about to anyone who would listen) over a year ago as we were nailing down our new cosmology, shouldn't create a sudden sense of "retrospective concession", since this game that we're still working on and improving contains a VAST amount of art assets that are constantly in a state of getting improved and updated to provide the best experience we can provide... Things absolutely will change in our game as we continue to do this, and this truth shouldn't be taking anyone by surprise (although such changes won't always please everyone all the time)... There will always be those moments of "but I like the way things were", just as there will always be "I think I like this new way better!" And that opinion will remain an individually subjective one...

    That being said, I did create this new Darkstarr Moondial as a separate Prefab for a reason... You'll note that I never said for anyone to "be prepared to have the one you already know and love change...". I don't know that it will, for sure... The truth is, I created this new version as a separate entity just in case they wanted to present this new Moondial as an option to override the old one, OR in case they wanted to offer this design as a "new" version in-game... It's going to be up to Richard, Starr, and Dallas to decide how they want this new one to make it's in-game debut... Who knows,...maybe they'll decide to leave the old one alone as if it represents the "old Novian science" and start offering the new model as a "revolution in Novian astronomy!"... Either way, it's probably not worth the trouble feeling that this represents some "lack of communication" or a "self inflicted wound".... It's nothing of the kind! It's progress, my friend! And our intent is nothing but positive... But as we all know, not all progress is appreciated by everyone involved,...sometimes for good reason,....and sometimes not... I personally feel, in this case,...that with this decorative item there's nothing worth getting concerned about... It's all good! ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    That was never in dispute. However you phrased it as you 'had no way to know'. I was simply pointing out that it was said at some point.
     
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  19. Solstar

    Solstar Avatar

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    It's their game.

    But I will be seriously disappointed if it doesn't replace the old one.
     
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  20. Drocis the Devious

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    I really appreciate your response, Scottie. Not just this one either, but all of them. You do a great job explaining why things are the way they are.

    This is where we get into answering if perception is reality. :)

    Take this response for example...
    It's not that I intended to phrase it that I "had no way to know" it's that somewhere in our communication you took it as that. Because I'm a firm believer that when you attempt to fix a communication problem you have to first look at the transmitter before you blame the receiver, I'll take the blame here and say that I could've phrased it better.

    But that's really my point, when the devs communicate to us, I think they often assume we know and understand that simply because...
    ...we as fans should not be impacted by thes

    Well yeah, I get that. I'm very happy that the moondial changed. I like this new version much better actually. :)

    The point I was trying to make however is that I'm surprised that it changed, it seemed like the quality of the moondial was pretty solid and despite other interpretations and the fact that we're in a constant state of change it was surprising (even for someone that follows the game as closely as I do). And frankly there are a lot of other things that seem like they're more in need of change than the moondial was. But it's not so much a comment about the moondial as it is with everything in the game. I couldn't tell you what should would or will change, largely because I don't know what the intention of the development team is other than "to make a great game".

    As a developer you're probably used to that, and comfortable with that, but I wonder/believe that to make the best game we can't really do that anymore. I mean I'm playing the game and the developers are making the game, so when these changes are made in a vacuum like this, it makes me feel (as a fan) that perhaps we're not be as efficient as we should with our feedback and perhaps the priorities of DEV, TEST, and PROD are not in alignment. Again, it's really important not to take this moondial example as the only piece of the puzzle. I totally agree that taken at face value there's nothing at all to be upset about here - and I'm not upset. :)

    The constant change though, however well intentioned, or however necessary, is often left open to translation baring fan and developer interaction like this. That's really what I'm trying to say. I wish we got more attention like this. Because it's extremely helpful and valuable to me personally to know why changes were made, what was concerned before the change was made, and what the future outlook looks like (even if that too may change).

    From a functionality standpoint the moondial is still very much an enigma despite any clues that have been laid down in the past. How exactly does it work with the crafting system? Do we have any example? (I don't think we do) Will it work with the magic system? (I don't think we know yet) It's this kind of uncommunicated speculative discussion that I think would be valuable feedback. I realize that fans are not always constructive and feedback is not always valuable. But before core systems (like astronomy) begin and become iterated on, I wonder if there's room to communicate what the plan is beyond a few lines in the quarterly schedule? I wonder if being "surprised" when things change could be lowered if we did more frontend communication of what "could" change and "why" it could change?

    I hope this makes sense.
     
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