Looting

@jondavis

Great. So you If you have a guild group, feel free to set your loot some other way. Buy 90%+ of the game will be PUGs. So leave the defaults in a way that makes sense. (Like GW2 did).

 

we don't know that they'll be pugs. Just because there are others in the scene with you doesn't mean they are part of your group or able to loot your kills. (although that is possible, I don't think it's likely) And if you are surrounded by mostly your friends or you form a group with your friends who aren't in a scene with you I'd think their spots will be left open (if there is a limit per scene number of players) so they can join you shortly, or you meeting them.

 

@PrimeRib, if they have a FPO mode specifically so that you can meet up with your friends, do you imagine in OPO the devs will suddenly become the 'friends Nazis', and say "NO. No friends for you!"

I think that's a bit foolish, don't you?

 

I vote for open loot for those in PvP mode just like the old UO days. If somebody doesn't participate in the kill and steals the loot let them turn grey and become freely attackable.

In PvE mode allow those who participate in the kill to all be able to take the loot (honor system/fastest mouse click), and if only one person killed that monster and is in PvE mode let him/her be the only one to loot it.

This allows for some griefing possibilities, but maybe fast fingers should be rewarded. Also don't party up with people who steal stuff is probably a good idea.


***Maybe though the to count as one of the possible looters some reasonable percent of damage must be inflicted so just one hit on a dragon that takes 50 hits to kill doesn't give you loot rights.***

 

All I'm saying is that having played dozens of MMOs in the last 6 years, it's a huge problem. GW2 gets is right. WoW is in the process of reworking their loot system for instanced loot (it's in the PUG raiding). There's simply no reason to roll back the clock and build something bad.

Set things up however you want with friends. But in default PUG mode, do something that makes sense for a PUG. I understand how people played MMOs many years ago where you didn't do anything without friends and guild mates. The market has changed drastically to be much more casual/PUG friendly.

 

Why would I want to join a group of players I don't know?
Or are games today all about singe player modes and just grouping up with someone on the same quest you are.
Hunting should be going out with your friends, if one group is hunting in that area move on to the next or you can fight for the spot if you want.

 

I agree with jondavis about groups. This is a role playing game not a grinding game. It would be best to go out and make friends then travel with them, not just randomly join a group of strangers.

It doesn't make sense that you would form a party with random people in real life, and there ought to be a sense of reality in an RPG.

 

The more I think about what jondavis said I'm convinced he's right.

I like the pug systems that find parties. they are convenient, but for a Story Driven RPG like this it seems out of place.

There should be "a reason" for partying.

Like jondavis said "Why would I want to join a group of players I don?t know?"

So I'm not against a pug system, but for the sake of "this game" I think it's out of place. It makes more sense to meet people or find hirelings. As convenient such a system would be, I hope the devs consider that for the Role Playing element of this game.

 

I'm with PrimeRib in this. After experiencing games that abolish fighting other party members for loot I really don't want to go back to loot rolls and loot drama.

It's not just GW2 plus WoW's pug raiding, BTW. Games are increasingly choosing to implement frictionless looting systems, sometimes even changing longstanding systems (such as in LotRO, which implemented individual loot as one of the steps to make players actually play together instead of completely avoiding each other in the game world).

@jondavis

<blockquote>Hunting should be going out with your friends, if one group is hunting in that area move on to the next or you can fight for the spot if you want.</blockquote>

Players will be able to, instead, just pop back to the overworld map, set their online setting to single player online or friends play online, and go back to a pristine version of the map they were in where they can hunt as much as they want without ever seeing other players.

The question then is, do we want this? In a MMO-like game that provides us with a sure way of completely avoiding everyone else, is it wise to have a looting system that makes players actually want to avoid strangers?

 

I dislike the idea of anything but open loot. Yes there are some things unfair about the style but the other options don't feel right. Going to Prime's point that a majority of people won't know the people they are playing with which (in his opinion) leads to the only logical conclusion of funky invisible rolls and instanced loot, I say why not have a review system of other players? Similar to eBay feedback or the way you rate teammates after a LoL battle, these reviews stick with other players so others can decide if they are trustworthy enough to join in battle. This sort of player review system would be a nice addition for a game that already plans on tracking your virtue and would alleviate this sort of problem behavior from people who only engage in it because there is no repercussions. Yes, there will still be thieves and shady folks but better I find out when he tries to steal half of my loot from an orc than when we're killing a dragon in the depths of the dungeon and he purposefully lets me die so he gets full loot.

 

@Silent Strider, yes I think that would be to easy to just switch modes every time you don't like something.

I have not heard how that all works yet.
Maybe there is a timer or something.

Look a PK, switch to friends.
Ah my friends are all here now, switch back to online mode.
Yea we got that PK now!

 

click and drag loot system. in the open pvp world make it open loot for anyone. in the non pvp online world whoever does the most damage gets looting rights and others cant loot or something along those lines.....

 

Would something like this work?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8umUyRxut3I

It takes just a short time.
The money bid on something to loot could go back into the bag to then be divided equally.

This does not have to be for every item.
The timer can even be shortened from what is above.
If there was a system like this, it would be nice to show the current value to an item being bid on.
Even if it don't work for looting it could work for selling items in town.

Plus you could have a clear description of the item so everyone knows what they are getting.

 

I think for PvE, just make everyone's view of corpse loot independent of everyone else's. That way I don't have to feel like I'm in a competition with group members. My loot is independent of your loot. If everyone gets a crappy sword they're just going to sell/salvage anyway, why should I care? From my point of view I got logical stuff off the corpse.

This is kind of like how gathering spawns work on Guild Wars 2. If I hit a copper node, what's in that node is private to me. Two people can be digging on the same node, and I get my ore, and they get their ore, and we aren't competing for that ore node. Make PvE looting the same, then you don't get group friction, and accusations of 'Ninja Looting'.

 

What happens when someone comes by later to look at the corpse?
Does he just not get to loot it?

 

If someone else comes who wasn't involved in killing it, they'd see nothing. Once you take what is available from the corpse, you can't take anything further from it. If you leave something on it, it will disappear when the corpse does. Until it disappears, I suppose you could come back for your loot. That way, if you get interrupted by a mob, you can still get your stuff after you've killed all the mobs.

 

@Arkhan: See: UO + 3rd party programs.

-- it's 2013. If the devs cannot figure this stuff out (RG is a badass. his programmers are badasses. not worried about this) I am available for consulting, but please dont suggest that they mess up the game mechanics over this. (also see @jondavis post below)

@Arkhan: If it?s a free looting system, it opens the floodgates for griefers. You?ll have zippy little thieves running around looting kills from ranged guys and then flailing off into the sunset.

-- I disagree with the "flailing off into the sunset", because if they loot my kill they will be flagged and I will kill them and take their loot along with mine. Also, a theif and a griefer are not the same thing. What's wrong with being a thief in a role playing game? Looting and Griefing have nothing to do with each other in any scenario that I can think of. The only part of what you said that is true is "You?ll have zippy little thieves running around looting kills from ranged guys" and I would add "and the ranged guys will attack and kill the thieves at range"

@Arkhan: Your real world dexterity shouldn?t impact your mighty hero?s life in the slightest.

-- I thoroughly disagree with this to the extent that I suggest playing a turn based combat game instead. That way your real world dexterity will not effect anything, you can go at your own pace, there is no risk, and you have a great role playing experience. Every other (non-turn based) video game, role playing or not, that I have played is based on your skill as a human being just as much as other things.

@Silent Strider, @Guerrilla: In a game where players have the option to play single player while still online, making loot go to the fastest clicker might have the unintended consequence of making players choose single player just to be sure the loot of everything they kill goes to them.

-- good point. I thought a lot about this comment of yours. then i realised that thankfully this isn't 1997 and with millions and millions of players we should be fine. let them play single player. if they dont want to interact with players they shouldnt have to. they should be incentivised, not forced. i suspect that since all the really top content will require items and resources from pvp only areas, that they will at least have to interact with other players on the level of trade (for special stuff), and hopefully advanced players ill figure out how to fit in. I think your post will mostly affect low to medium tier players before they become more advanced. so what?

@jondavis: Maybe put a short timer on how fast your next item can be looted.
That way it gives everyone a chance to get something. @Ara: It?s up to the developers to find these cheaters wether it is speedhack, aimbot or loot cheats.

-- both of you get it. they did this. it worked perfectly (after some trial and error and working their way around forged packets). it was costly on the server side because it meant keeping state on actions for every player which had a memory footprint and cpu cycles for checking every single move, but in 2013/2014 it should be cake.

@vjek: My preference would be for smart loot and auto-looting. That is, I would prefer never to roll against anyone for loot, have all loot that is wearable be useful to me at the moment of looting and have all loot automatically placed in my bags without a single click required.

-- It wouldnt work. If you are overloaded how does the computer decide what to autoloot for you? what if it grabs the crap you don't want? will it overload you so you cannot move instead? as a pk this would make a feeding frenzy of players that get locked up every time they kill somehting, but it wouldnt be fair or challenging. @jondavis agrees.

@Owain, @Primerib: If I?m competing with someone for loot, we should be flagged red to each other and be able to fight for it. Otherwise the only solution is invisible rolls and instanced loot for each player.

-- I like competing for loot with team mates. I like having the first person to click get the item. I think if you played a game with full loot drop you would agree with me. what you are suggesting works perfectly and fairly in a game with no full loot drop, where each corpse has 2-3 items on it, not 100 items like UO/SotA. If you are referring to monster kills, then if someone loots your corpse they should be flagged criminal and it should be open season for you and all your friends to kill them (and get MUCH more loot than what they took). if they are in your party then thats your fault for hanging out with people that steal your stuff, or you guys should just take turns looting, or if you are just super slow you'll have to just wait for the faster players to fill up with loot so they cant carry any more. I agree with @Owain.

@PrimeRib: All I?m saying is that having played dozens of MMOs in the last 6 years, it?s a huge problem.

-- I think you are having a hard time relating (and maybe some others as well) because you never played a game with full loot drop and open looting. it is the least frustrating... only when they try to nerf things does it get too complicated to make it pleasant and keep everyone happy. in UO they just made it simple... once they saw what everyone was upset about they made it so if you soot something that you're not "supposed" to then you get flagged criminal and everyone ganks you if it is obnoxious. rarely was this a problem ever again, and it added a lot of fun for the game. If some of the more tender hearted players got their way the thief players wouldnt have a role to play anymore.

@Isaiah: I agree with jondavis about groups. This is a role playing game not a grinding game. It would be best to go out and make friends then travel with them, not just randomly join a group of strangers.

-- thankfully i dont think pugs will exist as part of the norm in this game. the only excuse for a pug is maybe on off peak hours at 2am when nobody is online. what do you think about enabling pugs only when there are fewplayers on?

@Illesac:

-- i agree with your ideals and sentiments but your idea of a rating system is a dangerous one because it kills peoples ability to be deceptive in a role playing game, and will allow people to alienate people they dont like by luring them into a group and then having all their friends vote that player down. this isn't ebay. you win some you loose some. this isn't an issue.

@jondavis: The money bid on something to loot could go back into the bag to then be divided equally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8umUyRxut3I

-- all those great posts you made in this thread and then you come up with some overly complex system that breaks immersion to bid on items after every kill? you couldnt even do it most of the time that it counts anyway. if you have to come up with something this complex to cater to a desire for nerf it has probably gone too far already.

 

@Arkhan: Your right its not going to work in a looting system. It just slows things down to much.
I mean if there was a great item your party all wanted maybe use it then.
I think the auction could work when selling items in town though.

And if everyone has a different loot bag I'm not sure if I like that either.
It works great for those who like do not like dealing with other players.
But for me I like to see how players respond on choices like this.
A players comes by and thinks, do I try and take his loot, hmmm?

Having choices that tell things about who is playing is what I like best.

 

@lordrex

Actually, about the top content requiring items or resources from PvP areas: if you go by Chris this won't be true. AFAIK, he has stated that the rewards from PvP content will be either things that only matter to PvP players, or else things that can also be obtained by doing PvE content.

In other words, currently PvP is supposed to be a good way to obtain resources, but it is NOT supposed to be required for the top PvE rewards, not even in a "purchase this from someone that does PvP" way. Thanks to this, plus the existence of hirelings, it's quite possible that a player might be able to experience all PvE content, including group content, without interacting with anyone.

Also, the thread is about looting in general, not just PvP looting. And full loot, if it's implemented in the game (it's not currently guaranteed, though the devs are looking at it's feasibly), is likely to be just a corner case of PvP looting.

@jondavis
<blockquote>And if everyone has a different loot bag I?m not sure if I like that either.
It works great for those who like do not like dealing with other players.
But for me I like to see how players respond on choices like this.
A players comes by and thinks, do I try and take his loot, hmmm?</blockquote>

The problem is that a number of players tend to avoid others as much as possible if they think "ninja looting" possible. And even if that initial refrain from grouping is bypassed, it's not uncommon to see groups fall apart due to loot. Thus, I really prefer if loot is removed from the list of potential factors for group friction.

I don't mind too much loot being shared across the group, to be honest, but then I both only care about loot to the extent it enables me to see further content, and I don't mind dropping to single player for doing "real work". On the other hand, a player that grabs all loot just because the game allows him is showing the kind of personality trait I don't accept in players I associate with, so if the game allows me to blacklist him and never see him again, I will do so.

 

For OPO I think you need to have it so anyone can loot the bag.
That just opens up a more free way to play.

For FPO I'm guessing most people are not working against each other so you could do automatic looting. I doubt his buddy will kill him when he gets to full and can't walk anymore.

SPO could use automatic looting also.


Yes OPO mode might drive more players out, but OPO I think is more for the players who want to deal with other players.