Looting

I'm with PrimeRib also. Instanced loot is the way to go IMO. I think it also promotes gifting as well. Something I have that I intend to trade for coin might be more valuable to me and someone else if I gift it to a party member. It helps build bonds up. Being the person that "always gets the good stuff" doesn't.

 

There's nothing realistic about being the first person to frantically click on loot. What, is everyone 5 years old?

"I GRABBED IT FIRST I GOT DIBS ITS MINE NOT YOURS STOP IT".

There's also nothing realistic about someone with a better connection having a distinct advantage, unless you want to imply that their connection speed is a parallel to their real world alertness.


There's also not much realistic about griefers hiding in the bushes waiting to come out and steal your stuff off of your hard earned kills with a simple click, because in reality, if someone ran out of the bushes at me and I had a crossbow, it probably wouldn't take more than 1 bolt to their throat to put them down.



There comes a time when you have to forsake "realism" in favor of delivering an enjoyable game experience. Besides, any combat where it takes more than one wack to the head with a sword/axe/mace to make another humanoid opponent stagger around and bleed out.... is not very realistic.

so, why should the looting feign realism.

 

Regarding these objections:

"
1) It wouldnt work.
2) If you are overloaded how does the computer decide what to autoloot for you?
3) what if it grabs the crap you don?t want?
4) will it overload you so you cannot move instead?
5) as a pk this would make a feeding frenzy of players that get locked up every time they kill somehting, but it wouldnt be fair or challenging.
"

1) With respect, it has worked well in other games, but thank you for your opinion.

2) Typically, if you have no space, it doesn't loot. It's left behind. Come back later and get it if you want, before it expires. I would prefer a mechanic that doesn't allow anyone else to loot anything flagged as "yours", ever, from NPC corpses.

3) The point of smart loot is there is no "crap", but it seems reasonable that the game would loot high value items before low value items, or provide an option for such a thing. A separate bag/storage system for resources and consumables would also be my preference.

4) Presuming there are weight restrictions, it's simply a matter of an option to enable or disable [ autoloot when over weight limit ( y/n ) ] I would prefer a less punitive mechanism, personally, instead of immobilizing the player. Like, it could cost vast sums of money/resources/consumables to have your excess loot teleported to your stash, for example, as more of a carrot approach, rather than a stick. More sinks for more taps.

5) With respect to direct 1v1 pvp combat, it's all consensual, so you would know that risk before enabling it. (rendering any arguments of fair or challenging, to a degree, moot) But again, the options above would prevent what you describe.
--
Personally, I would prefer no weight limits, but rather quantity of content limits, but I suspect I'm in the minority. From what I've seen, having weight limits invariably leads to stat skewing in favor of being able to carry a reasonable amount, further restriction the illusion of choice and freedom the typical player enjoys. (put simply, everyone feels the need to have max strength, or whatever stat is tied to the carry limit, rather than being able to choose other stats)

Naturally, if there are mechanisms in game that provide something akin to "Bags of Holding" then weight limits are great. It also makes them kind of silly, though, once 99% of the players have the "required" bags.

 

To me Instanced Looting is just another way of dumbing down the game.
Why, because someone had a bad experience.
The more ways I have to deal with someone else the better.
The goal should be to play smart not play dumb.
So if there is a looter around find ways to keep the loot.
I hate it when we just turn off features because of someones game experience.

Why would players play in OPO mode if you can't handle it every time someone does something you don't like?

 

@Lordrex:

Yes, there's a difference between roleplaying a thief, and just being a complete jerk online because you can. However, the two often start out in a similar manner.

You state situations in their best case. "I get robbed, I kill robber". That's not always going to be the case, especially when you've got higher level dudes just sitting around because they can. It's happened on every online RPG that has ever been released. People grief. It's how the internet works, for the most part.


Also, I wouldn't say they are "messing up game mechanics". 3rd party programs were/are still used on UO. They're used on WoW, Phantasy Star Online, Phantasy Star Universe, Everquest 2, etc.

Tons of big name companies get hit by 3rd party programs giving advantages to those who use them. No matter what style of looting is chosen, you can be sure some goober is going to figure out a way to exploit it.

The trick isn't so much figuring out the looting as it is figuring out how to stop people from doing stupid things with the looting.

Also, I don't play roleplaying games to show off my strength/reflexes. If I want to do that, I fire up an FPS, Fighting game, or shmup with the difficulty set to the highest thing it has.

One of the points of RPGs is that you can step into a character who can do things you aren't able to do otherwise.

Also, you realize people with physical handicaps play these games too, right? How do you propose they partake of first come, first serve looting?

 

Right. That's why you have to take some liberties with it instead of trying your damnedest to make it as real as possible. Some things don't translate perfectly to a virtual world.

I mean, is someone going to suggest your mouse cursor be slowed down if you're dragging heavy objects to your pack...?

Man that would be goofy.

 

@Arkhan

<blockquote>Tons of big name companies get hit by 3rd party programs giving advantages to those who use them. No matter what style of looting is chosen, you can be sure some goober is going to figure out a way to exploit it. </blockquote>

Nowadays you don't even need the 3rd party element to be a program; it can actually be a piece of hardware, not even requiring specific drivers to work it's "magic", and thus virtually undetectable.

Both my mouse and my keyboard, for example, allow fairly complex macros. And while my keyboard runs the macros on it's driver, my mouse actually has a processor inside it that runs the macros. It's, thus, almost impossible to detect reliably (it would require heuristic tests, which are subject to false positives), and completely impossible for a program to disable my mouse's macro capabilities as it doesn't requires or uses special drivers.

 

Many people in here are advocating difficulty to looting, when most companies have been working on streamlining and improving looting, some of you are looking back for the "ancient" (In MMO-time) way to loot, combined with making it even harder.

that makes no sense to me.. streamline it, looting has never been a fun thing for me to do, and I don't think it ever will be.

The items automatically showing up in my temporary inventory slots that need to be moved to primary storage because it will run out of space within 30 kills (assuming minimal item variety, a lot of talons and claws or whatever) would be just fine (or drop it on the ground if i don't want it).. keep loot separate, keep it unique is also cool with me.. whatever makes the system have the fewest issues and headaches.

pvp loot is a bit different, maybe that should be a race to loot manually... possibly with a .5 second or 1 second delay between items.

 

Right, that's why it's better to just figure out ways to avoid odd looting shenanigans even being a possibility.

There are too many things in the virtual world that some will claim is "realistic" but are subject to computer interference.

Being able to swipe peoples loot out from under someone because you bought a cooler mouse is one of those things.

How does that translate into realism?

I'm not really against the use of fancy mouses to make playing easier since clicking is tedious. However, if the looting system is easily exploitable with the same mouse, that really kind of sucks.


What if you have arthritis?

"Jee, my mighty warrior can't loot a damn thing most of the time because my real world problems affect his ability to loot against a player with a 250$ mouse."

Real world interference takes away from the immersion.

 

I just see gw2 as the gold standard here. WoW lfr loot is similar. Neverwinter is actually good for open world but bad N/G/P in groups because they assumed they would be guild/friends rather than PUGs. (And they get absolutely trashed on the forums for this oversight.)

SotA was designed to be groupless, so I expect it to work like gw2 or how nw does in open world. As long as you hit the mob hard enough to tag it (say 5% of the damage or whatever) you will have some looting rights.

Thus if you see someone trying to kill something and help them, they don't yell at you for KSing them and yet you have some incentive to help.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loot

I'm open to new, innovative ideas. But please no moving backwards.

 

in party situations, I like having options:

You could set it up to be Round Robin (pass non-equippable stuff to people in order), Loot master (party leader gets loot and divvies it out), or have the N/G/P thing pop up.


That way if you're playing with just friends, you could streamline it by giving the leader all loot, and then he can divvy it out at someones house after the adventure..

 

Now one thing that is fun to do to those people who steal loot and kills from you.. just PK them that'll learn 'em. It could be a good draw for people to switch to pvp mode hehe...


I am curious about how much self regulation players would have knowing that they are accountable for their actions and things they say. Knowing that a community can seek them out and ruin their play experience.

What would UO look like in these cases if trammel never came out and still had pvp everywhere? would it have died even worse than it has? or would there be tons of organization on the players parts to stop the disruptive behavior? We have much better organization and communication tools than we did back in 1999.

anyway, sorry that is a different conversation.

 

@Mishri, can't PK in a PvE situation if you aren't both flagged for open PvP, so then what? That's why I think that since it isn't open PvP everywhere as in UO, it would be best to avoid the problem entirely by my view of the loot independent from your view of the loot. I get what I get, and you get what you get, and we aren't competing for the same stuff.

 

To your points, Arkhan

"
You could set it up to be Round Robin (pass non-equippable stuff to people in order), Loot master (party leader gets loot and divvies it out), or have the N/G/P thing pop up.

That way if you?re playing with just friends, you could streamline it by giving the leader all loot, and then he can divvy it out at someones house after the adventure..
"

These types of options are unnecessary with personal smart loot. They are just bandaids on a fundamentally inconvenient system that many MMOs have tried, but there are better options.

Owains point echo's my own opinion:

"
... it would be best to avoid the problem entirely by my view of the loot independent from your view of the loot. I get what I get, and you get what you get, and we aren?t competing for the same stuff.
"

That is the way it should be. It avoids all the negative social interaction, avoids inconvenience, and honestly? It allows developers to focus on things that might actually be innovative, entertaining, fun, and challenging in a broader gameplay environment. However, personal smart loot does have consequences for other in-game mechanics, and these would need to be considered in the overall design document/architecture.

In a more general sense, overly tedious and/or punitive mechanics should be carefully considered in any new persistent world online title, in light of the state of the genre. Put another way, if it came down to two titles having identical mechanics except one had a punitive, tedious, or "unfair" looting system, the customer has a choice. It seems reasonable to presume they will choose what is more fun, innovative, and entertaining, for them.

 

Looting in UO brought on Looter guilds.
Guilds that did not PK you.
Well almost.
These guilds put walls around you while you were up close to creatures trying to get you killed not by them but by the creatures.
These guilds would find ways to get you killed without them becoming a murderer.
This was what so great about UO.
All the different ways to play.
The first time I dealt with a looter guild I was laughing.
Yea they got me killed and looted my stuff but just to see things like that in the game was great.
After getting lotted I looked them up.
They had a web page with many screen shots.
It wasn't long before our guild and them were at war.
With lots of our guild going criminal to fight them off.

Besides just looting you, they would loot your kills at times.
But all of that just made the game more fun in the end.
At least for those who like the unexpected..

This is what most are fighting to rid the game of.
You not just turning off looting.
You turning off Guilds.

I have to ask again why most are fighting for a looting system in OPO mode that would cause less interaction between players and not more?

 

@jondavis :

The reason why most people are (well i know i am and judging by the forums most others are) against open looting and more in favor of instanced looting like in GW2 is simply down to fairness. SotA isn't a replica of UO, UO was a great game but had many flaws and looting was one of them (for PvE anyway). Too often did I have friends who spent a long time fighting mobs and not get any loot due to their connection speed or whatever. Looting systems evolve along with how games are evolving and going back to a first click open loot is just a major step back IMO. Catering to elitist gamers is never a good way to go (yeah i think its an elitist way to look at it, hardcore speeding around trying to get in first if you dont then your out tough luck etc) especially when it comes down to things like internet connections, real life disabilities etc why should they be punished?

Instanced loot is a step in the right direction and works very well IMO. GW2 has the best looting system I have come across in any game as of yet.

 

@jondavis, @Netty

It's not merely fairness; it's also about avoiding negative interactions between players and, in so doing, provide a far stronger incentive for players to play together with each other.

The GW2 system (and LotRO's current system, and WoW for the easiest raid difficulty and the open world bosses, and Spiral Knights, and DDO, etc) is great not only because it treats players fairly, but also because players are completely guaranteed to not ever be subject to ninja looting or something similar. This makes players far more willing to join groups with strangers, since they know that those strangers won't be able to betray them.

LotRO is a very interesting example because it actually changed from a traditional system with tagging to an instanced, tagging-less, looting system similar to GW2's system. Before the change, apart from instanced group content and RP, players usually avoided each other to the best of their abilities, since having other players close by would reduce their farming/grind/questing efficiency; after the change you see players together in the open world far more often, since now the most efficient way to get rewards in the open world is to actually group with other players.

Also, @jondavis, I do understand that some players want the whole social interaction package, both the good things and the bad things, and effectively have fun finding ways to tackle with the griefers. I do think that is the exception rather than the rule, though; most players I've got to know, when faced with the kind of griefing you have described, are more prone to just abandon the game than to try to find a way for the players themselves to police the situation. If the game has loot going to the fastest clicker, my belief is that this will just push most players into never engaging mobs in OPO mode, instead preferring to switch to single player or friends only before doing anything that can drop loot.

@vjek

<blockquote>In a more general sense, overly tedious and/or punitive mechanics should be carefully considered in any new persistent world online title, in light of the state of the genre. Put another way, if it came down to two titles having identical mechanics except one had a punitive, tedious, or ?unfair? looting system, the customer has a choice. It seems reasonable to presume they will choose what is more fun, innovative, and entertaining, for them.</blockquote>

With SotA that "other title" is SotA when played in single player mode. Even more, players will be able to be in OPO mode when in places meant for social interaction and be in single player mode when actually going out to "play". Having unpopular mechanics that only become meaningful when playing with others has, thus, a much stronger potential to drive players out of the multiplayer part of the game than in almost any other game I've ever seen.

 

We have already talked about putting timers on looting items so they can't just loot everything at once.
That problem can be fixed.

As far as looting in PVE sure instanced looting works.

As far as good and bad, isn't that what this game is partly about.
And like you said if players don't like the bad they have two other options, friends and single player.

I'm not sure how were going to get the evil player in the game if we don't let them be evil.

 

My preferences on loot:

1. No binding systems. BoP and BoE just seemed like an unnecessary convention in other games that I don't think should exist.

2. I prefer a versatile crafting system that can be used to create items as powerful as any drop in the wild and with that in mind I'd prefer if loot was mostly restricted to materials.

3. Individual loot windows for each person that participated in killing a mob.

 

@arkhan: sounds like you would like an all around grief free game.
lucky for you there will be the option to play offline, free of any player "grief" or harm.