Subterfuge....mainly thievery

Right, we disagree. Which is fine.

But for me when you're in single player mode, if you get caught the NPC's don't really do much. I mean in Thief you just start over from your save point. In SOTA, you'll probably just make one random NPC angry at you (who cares?) and you can always delete your character and start over if it's that impactful.

Stealing from another player has a risk factor that is much higher. I don't think that should be a controversial statement, I think that's a fact.

 

Depends on the game mechanics. Some games have permadeath, others put you in prison, etc. You can get around things like that with save scumming (copying your saved files and reloading from them) but a lot of people consider that like cheating.

 

Would Thieves be OK with having their character jailed if they steal too much?

I talk about having a bounty system and an idea for criminal flags in this post:
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...utation-per-account.38976/page-14#post-442497

Tree of Life is a good example of how theft, lockpicking, and a criminal system currently being played out. It's a pretty bleak scenario in that game. I think I'm more in favor of item theft from NPC's and NPC structures, and players in PvP but not player housing. I'd like to see a system of laws in place in Sota. Tree of Life is an environment where you can steal from other players, destroy their bases and attack them at any time...the game basically caters to griefers right now and at one point they had 3600 players now it's down to 100 avg I believe. They're also waiting for a wipe and more content, so that accounts for some of the low population. I don't like the idea of stealing from player housing because of the point Baron Drocis makes, where we deal with time zone differences and the next time you login everything is lockpicked and all your stuff is stolen. Although in that post, I do submit an idea for tracking down the players and scrying them.

 

I thought the Archeage jail system was awesome. If could probably use a few tweaks, but the spirit of it was fantastic. I hope we get a bounty system and a jail system for Episode II.

 

I'd like to play a thief against NPCs. Mostly because I despise PvP, but I loved the original Thief. As far as repercussions, there would be Virtue hits, fines, possible jail time, potentially banishment (attacked on sight), etc. Lots of fun opportunities for role-playing.

 

Oh yes, I'd like to reiterate that one of the reasons we need climbing skills in the game is for subterfuge.

Scaling walls and climbing into windows, rope-walking, climbing up trees and hiding there, hanging from cliff edges to hide.

One of the best aspects of climbing in U8: Pagan was finding alternative ways into locked houses.

 

Though there could always be thieving / rogue skills for virtuous purposes, like rescuing someone from a giant's lair (Jack & the Beanstalk) or Robin Hood type missions.

 

Disarming a sleeping guard <-- another use for pickpocketing.
Getting a key from a sleeping guard <-- another.

 

Ransom scenario: I pick your pocket and succeed. A box pops up for you and says, a player used a skill on you do you wish to cancel this skill use? pay 100 gold= yes.

Do I have that option when that player casts a fireball at me? No. Why not?
Do I have that option when a player decides to spam me with their lute playing skill? No. Why not?
Do i have that option when players spam heal on me to gain skill in Life magic? No. Why not?
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Thievery is the only skill where players get an in game automatic cancellation of me using my skill. Using the fence idea is basically the same thing, EXCEPT it is not an automatic button popping up.

Also with the mechanics the way they are now, we will end up with an EvE style gate jumper system going on. There is only one place where you spawn into a "zone" unless there is a moon gate. Everyone will be hiding in stealth where you zone in at just to jump you. This needs a fix as well

 

unfortunately, all of these ideas and discussions are moot :/

 

I don't know why people think a lot won't come into Episode 1. The Devs have stated that even when we release episode 1 things will be added into the game continuously. Having to wait for Episode 2 or so on is not necessarily the case, who knows what will make it in.

I think thievery is important for the game. Perhaps like saying no we won't have archery, what an uproar this would cause. There are so many fun possibilities that could be there for playing a thief class.. I don't feel it all has to be pvp related as in stealing from an npc. It may take a lot of discussion but I still feel it an important and necessary one to have. I think it would be a big misssing to not have this in the game. I like the ideas of the OP and the link provided has great ideas. To think that the thief in the game necessarily infringes upon someone elses playstyle is limiting creativity to make it not do that. I think there is a way. I don't remember UO thievery bothering me all that much. It wasn't like no matter where I went I was being accosted by a thief. IMO of course. So +1 for thievery in Shrouds.

 

If they kill you using fireball, or whatever else, and loot you, you get the exact same option. Pay 100 gold and they didn't loot you, they stole a bit of coin from you instead. Thievery is the same thing.

For lutes, you can turn down player music to zero and they will not affect you at all.

For healing... well, its benign, so I wouldn't worry about it. If you are flagged PvP, I guess you can kill them for it, but seems extreme...

 

Since Redfish mentioned Ultima 8 and Captain Jack played into that last year and someone else here mentioned that there are no PvE risks for stealing... Captain Jack had his body parts handed to him quite readily after attempting to rifle through someone's stuff in an Ultima 8 house. That seemed rather the opposite of no risk PvE!

 

After the solo experience I had in Necropolis, I was trying to find stealthy ways to achieve my objective, since combat & outrunning the foes wasn't working for me the first few times. As Obi-Wan Kenobi wisely said to Han Solo when the Millennium Falcon was trapped in the Death Star's tractor beam: "You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting..." Stealth and subterfuge is a handy option, especially when you're in no shape to go toe-to-toe with the foe, mundanely or magically.

That being said...

The big thing about a communal experience, such as a MMORPG, a regular ol' tabletop RPG session, a board game, etc., is that there is an element of consent to it: the players participate in the game fully aware and knowing what can and can't be done in said game. Games can either be a cooperative experience or a competitive experience.

PvP, with all of its implications, is a competitive experience. It's you vs. another player, whether solo or as part of a party/team/group/guild/etc. Players who knowingly play PvP games are aware of the nature of the game and have consented to the rules of that style of game. Stealing from other players fits in nicely with a PvP style game--risk & reward, if you will.

However, enforcing that play style as a universal standard for a game will keep some people from playing, because they don't get enjoyment from that sort of playstyle. I prefer PvE over PvP. I never got into UO because, at 1st, my computer didn't meet the minimum specs, & later on, because I learned of the severe griefing & PvP that occurred in the game. For me, it seemed more like Escape from New York than Ultima due to that playstyle. I'm also not a fan when other players target a fellow player without any warning (especially if it's done for their personal amusement, without any regard on how said action would affect the other player's amusement with the game). IMO, it's not fun in a tabletop RPG game, & it's not fun in an online version of that either.

And therefore, in my honest and strong opinion, I think thieving should be remain in PvP areas and on players would accept/consent to the PvP element (and are flagged as such). Stealing from a player's house in a town that's flagged for PvP? Sure! It's agreed to ahead of time. Stealing from a player's house that said player put in a PvE/non-PvP because they chose to avoid such experiences in the game in the first place? Not cool.

It's those elements of expectation & consent that are crucial to player interaction within a game. If those expectations are suddenly gone, whether for a brief window ala The Purge or indefinitely, then it'll affect the game as players opt not to play it because of the very presence of those elements. And one of the challenges that the game makers face is how to accommodate a broad range of playing styles within the same product. (Another challenge is how to keep the more competitive sorts of players from crossing lines, such as bad sportsmanship or worse, since the relative anonymity of online gameplay can exacerbate bad behaviors into even worse ones.)

That's my $0.02 on the issue. To sum up: in PvP zones/with PvP-accepting players, it's ok. Elsewhere, especially with non-PvP players, it's a no-go.

 

I like the idea of having 'illegal' and stolen items. A lonnng time ago on the LS Mage Tower (UO) forums I proposed this concept of having certain items for assassins and thieves and were totally illegal in town. If you made the list as a suspicious/shady sort of character the guards might randomly decide to frisk you. If you have any items that would be recently 'stolen' or illegal you might have to bribe the guard or the guards would pursue you and throw you in jail. Bribing would work on some guards but not on others, depending on their alignment/virtue. Thieves and assassins required a concealment skill and based on this skill they could hide illegal and stolen items from the town guard. One type of item I thought might be illegal was a concealable stiletto projectile weapon that could be used to inject deadly poison, another item might be a blackjack. In order to get the 'stolen' label off of items you have to sell them to a NPC thieves guild fence, etc. Or perhaps the stolen label is only relative to the town you steal the items from.

 

A Kickstarter stretch goal that was promised was for a full and proper underground with its own ecology and culture.

I had always thought an underground city with a black market for stolen items makes a lot of sense down there.

 

That would be pretty sweet.

 

Did they mean an Underworld like in caverns and caves or an Underworld like shady characters?

 

It would be interesting to have an environment that blends the cavernous look of Owl's Nest that converges with the Sewer environment.... so an environment that combines the two. Exposed underground waterfalls and ponds, partially deteriorating stone sewer structures and walkways, etc There might be pitfalls to lower, more dangerous areas and other traps that need to be avoided or disarmed. There might be stone courtyards with underground markets and an assortment of proprietors that deal in shady items, these markets could be occasionally patrolled and raided by town guards and would need to be reassembled in different locations. When you find one of these underground markets, the prices for goods would be lower, otherwise you would have to buy the crafting materials from a 'shady' version of the NPC crafting vendor associated with the thieves guild which would be fairly expensive. You might have to battle your way through bandits and other hostile creatures to get to these locations, or stealth your way to them. Or perhaps pay a guide/thief hireling to guide you through the area if you don't have skill in subterfuge.

I'd like to see a haggling system in place. If you try haggling with some of the vendors, they may refuse to deal with you (permanently, until the underground market is reassembled), but if you're successful you could get the items at a lower price than normal, or perhaps even barter with them. Players could insert their own vendors into these market stalls to sell some of their shady/illegal goods. (stolen items that haven't gone through a fence and other stuff)

 

I like the ideas in the OP. I loved my thief in Ultima! And I really like the idea of 'flagging criminal' brought into this game. Its a wonderful dynamic. I think the guards shouldnt just one-shot the best of the best avatars though (maybe just newbie thieves / criminals). Maybe the guards could have some kind of stun, and just chase a thief around like a pack of skeletons in a dungeon. Other players could join in the attacks on the thieves, and the social dynamic of tracking down and "bringing to justice" the worst offenders via a bounty system is fun.