Does anyone else HATE the proposed card system??

Well the problem here we know to little and that's why i speculate to give my opinion on what i fear will come. Do developers listen to players like me?

I dunno but this is the only way i can communicate with them.

We really need some more information so these speculations could blow over.

 

Yeah, so... what Chris initially describes in the video is not what's described in that eurogamer link. He's describing custom button layouts, and having stored customized hotkey layouts.. and doesn't mention random "runes", temporal randomness, or random skill replacement, or any of that.

short transcription snippet:

10:55
Sir Frank KC: So that button bar at the bottom, is that hotkeys for my special abilities? Or.. is combat going to be button mashing?

CS: It'll be button mashing.. combat is a long topic.. we're trying out a few different things, just trying to get some more skill elements into it. We're trying to get away from the pure mindless button mashing or patterned button mashing that you have in like World of Warcraft type game.
We're actually trying to add some skill elements, we're also trying to add some offline preparation, not necessarily offline, but out of combat preparation type stuff. So we're actually introducing.. I even hate to use the word because it always brings lots of flames.. using some of the deck mechanics from card games. Trying to bring some skill into that but there's actually some planning ahead of time, you can build out your own custom set. And we're using that to solve a number of problems. One, it introduces a large skill element, we have a lot of ways to tune that. And it introduces a skill element in combat of being able to use it well and paying attention to it. Kind of what I refer to as plate spinning, where you need to be able to pay attention to do more than one thing at a time.
It also allows us to continue the classic Ultima classless system, where it's not like you're a warrior, you're a mage, you're a thief, what you are.. how you play your character can change greatly, depending on what's in that.. how you set up that button bar. You can actually keep a couple of different setups, so you can have your here's my solo'ing setup, but when I have friends and I always play the healer so you have another setup of the buttons that is actually, you know, set more for healers.
But I've got a couple of hour long plus talks on it, online. And we we're not going to be showing off hardly any of that for Rooster-Teeth [RTX]. We just didn't think it was far enough along visually. We're still working out some of the mechanics but by the end of the year timeframe, we'll have actual working and skillful combat in there.
And for those who are worried that it may be too much work, we're trying to balance that, and make this so this is not something that you have to think about it, you have to use it for every single combat. It'll be more the.. you know, [garbled] you can handle combat with greens, and maybe equal level creatures, like lower level creatures and equal level creatures without using that, just using basic attacks without thinking about it. We're really.. just trying to make this for the more challenging fights, you'll actually have to pull in some skill elements.
13:25
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I wonder which one is right? Sure would be nice to know, for certain.

I'll transcribe the other description (don't have time to transcribe it right now) later.

 

Changing specs to suit your situation is fine if done properly.
I loved the way GW1 did it. You can change your spec as much as you want with no cost, but only when you're in a major player hub, you can't change it when you're out in the field.
How WoW did it, I very much didn't like it. Switching your specs in between fights, rather you were questing in the persistant world or in a dungeon, was stupid. Free respecs would of been less abusive, as that way every time you wanted to change your specs you had to port back to town, talk to your class trainer, and setup your new spec. Meant you wern't changing specs to suit every specific need, so multi-roll specs would be more popular, while free respecs would incourage players to experiment with new ideas, that's pretty much what my experience was in GW1 anyways.

 

Ok, the other part of the video.

(Edit: Fixed the names, thanks to Sir Frank KC ! )
16:19
CS: ..no matter how attached someone is to a game idea, if it ends up not being fun in the final product then we're going to change our plans.
But the way that it is currently set to work is you'll be given a set of runes or just.. kind of the equivalent of cards that skills will open those up, items will open those up, consumables will open those up, and you'll just have a large number of those to pick from. You'll get to put together a stack of thirty or so of these that then get dealt out to you at random to your bottom bar. So it's not a fixed.. button one is always Shield Bash, button two is always.. you know.. Throat Cut.. and button three is always Adrenaline Surge, they actually get moved around.
Some of them also have combo's, where two cards will combine into a more powerful card. So it's one of those things where you can build your deck with certain combo's in mind and again, that's part of that whole "plate spinning" and trying to pay attention to both combat and those at the bottom. Focusing those, you can build out a deck that has more defensive elements and you can have one that's more offensive you can have one that's more healing or crowd control.
There's also, for instance[?], the concept of, it's not just.. you know, I'm going to.. "my card, is going to be like, will it do damage, or will it heal?" It'll also be like.. this card may actually change up something with the cards.. we've got a couple different plans, a couple different different ways we're playing through with it right now.. but the one that we're leaning towards, we'll see how it plays out once we actually have some real solid encounters and other players to fight against.. but the one we're leaning towards is that the cards actually deal out and they stay for x number of seconds and then they vanish. So it's.. you have to.. it's kind of a use them or lose them type card system.
While you're playing that, the cards will be changing out and it's really something you have to pay attention to. This let's us bring in ... there's a lot of knobs that this gives us. Primarily, we can change the speed at which they deal out. We can change the number of cards at the bottom. We can change how long they stay, we can allow skills to affect that too, so maybe you are a skilled player or you play non-stop, you know, twelve hours a day, and this takes no brain power for you at all. You can have those actually have more cards at the bottom.. have skills to open that up, deal out faster, you can also throw in cards like "well I just occasionally want to wipe my deck and deal out.. you know.. ten new cards at the bottom" to see what new combo's might come up.
But it lets you choose your play style, a lot[?], so some players will.. they're just going to put a bunch of heal potions in there and they're going to have a few defensive attacks, and that's all there going to do with it. But it lets you also try that out.. building up those combo's and building up that stack that those are going to be pulled from.. it just gives you an offline kind of out of combat experience where you can go and try out the different combo's and people will of course be posting all the different like.. "here's my favorite thirty card combo for when I'm playing a tank", you know, share yours with me.
So again, that's the current plan, we'll see how that holds up once we actually have the game to a point where everything in it is fun, the AI is solid, and we have some real solid encounters.

MD: This system of.. kind of basing this off of.. cards or a deck, I'm not sure what to call that, I haven't played any games like that but one of the things that keeps coming to my mind is that there's a lot of people who will.. their decks.. they do a lot of building of their decks and acquiring of stuff.. Are we going to have any buttons that are like.. foil wrapped? <laughter> And we wave them out to try and figure out whether or not they're the valuable buttons?

CS: There's not going to be.. there's no plan at this point to sell.. to make this a collectible type card game. Where you have to buy.. I've got to buy ninety seven packs or whatever. There's going to be not that. It's going to be more tied to skills and be tied to items, you know, powers and abilities. It's going to be that type of thing. It's not going to be where the guy who spends the most money on buying foil wrapped card binder[?], the collectible card decks or whatever's going to have the advantage.

MD: I guess that's the tactile version of pay-to-win. With the cards, is that, you know, I spend a thousand dollars on my deck and so yes I've got some more stuff than the hundred dollar guy.

CS: Yep

MD: Yeah, ok.

CS: It also feeds into.. just a number of things, in addition to the whole skill element that it brings to the game. The way we're planning on it.. if you've watched many of the talks, that I always talk about.. we're not going to be like a World of Warcraft or Everquest or any of those type power curves. Where someone who is ten levels higher than you will.. you know.. is infinitely more powerful than you. We're really going more for a more linear actually a little bit more flatter than that type power curve.
And it also brings a little bit of a luck element into it with the dealing, so that, you know, there may be.. it's not going to be the same old thing that if you have two guys who always fight, a hundred percent of the time, that guy will beat that guy.
There's a skill element, but there's a little bit of luck to it, that you might get a lucky draw.

MD: So I'll actually win, occasionally, instead of just dying every time.

CS: That's exactly right

Fear: That's good, that's good, Mark.

MD: Yeah, you should see me in some of the other games I play, I fear any stats that show how many times I die.

Fear: Got to break a few eggs.

MD: I break a dozen at a time.

CS: Well, any more questions on that stuff?

Sir Frank KC: I've never played a game where the curve wasn't steep, where someone who has played the game a long time and has a higher skill will have any chance of losing to a guy that just started his account a few days ago. So that'll be.. it'll be interesting to see how that turns out.. I have no clue. But then I also relate it to.. you're supposed to be able to play the game solo or with friends so how is that going to translate.. how will a solo character ever beat some big boss fight late in the game? Compared to, you know, a group of five or six people?

CS: So we haven't decided if we're going to have like... catch up code or leveling code so that creatures, big boss fights become easier if you're doing them solo. Right now we're leaning towards not having that in there. It introduces a lot of problems when we do have that. There probably will be some fights in the online version that you just can't win solo. Those will clearly be out of the main quest line. We want you to be able to complete the main quest line completely solo.
But there will be some ways you can probably lean on consumables, things that actually have a cost with them, rather than just having.. you know, using powers and your skills.. or magic spells. There will be some things that if you have more expensive consumables on them, that you can probably push your through encounters you otherwise wouldn't have been able to.
So, using potions to compensate, or consumables to compensate. It's a little bit of a tricky balance trying to make the game for single player and multi player. Again, we're going to keep the combats that can't be won solo out of the quest line, as much as possible. And there probably will be some encounters you just can't win solo, though.

Fear: [garbled] could a different boss, or a different way to win that scenario? That we're going there? Sort of?

CS: Uh..

Fear: ..you kind of just going around it, or I don't know.. how to...?

CS: Well, so, there will be some of them that are.. there will be some boss fights that you just will not be able to beat solo. But again, we'll keep those out of the main story line. Those will be offshoot type things. It won't block you from the main story line that Tracy and Richard are scheming.

Fear: It would kind of be a bonus, then, in other words, or something like that.. yeah.

CS: There will be at least a couple of the sections in the main quest line that will probably move to be a.. you have to do it alone. Because we will want to balance it where we need to tune it for that amount of.. [that?] time. And that's just... I can't go into the story unless Richard has talked about it, which.. he hasn't talked about that part too much, but..

Fear: That's ok, I'm just trying to get an idea in my head of what you just said there.

Sir Frank KC: Chris, you should have a few drinks first, then we'll talk about the secret information again. <laughter> So, I have a question that's really broad and you don't really have to answer it if you don't want to... [moving on to forums, economy, housing, etc]
25:25
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My thoughts on this..

Chris admits this system adds luck, so rather than you consistently winning through skill, there's a chance, through a lucky card draw, they can beat you. That's... not going to be popular. I don't personally think that random luck, to such a large degree via this specific mechanic, has any place in combat. And do NPC's have this mechanic? Can they get a random lucky card draw and burn you to ash without you having any recourse?

However, there is a hint throughout all of this that the card/rune/deck thing is IN ADDITION TO your base skills. If you have two rows of hotkeys, and the top one you have your static skills, and the bottom one (they keep saying "the bottom one") is randomized runes/deck/cards/whatever, there is a glimmer of hope this won't be a disaster of truly epic proportions.

So, in my opinion, if you have your base skills, and all the dealing, random, card deck .. "stuff" is extra, bonus, flavor, it might be ok. Then it's kind of like Heroic Opportunities (EQ2) or Fellowship Maneuvers (LOTRO). They help, and if you pay attention, can turn the tide, but they're completely optional.

If that's how it's going to be, I might be convinced it has some small merit. As a necessary, required, core combat mechanic though? Nope. Not for me. I want to fight monsters, not be playing whack-a-mole with my combat UI. Luck and Whack-A-Mole... dangerous territory, Portalarium.

 

Green shirt guy is Fear from Battle Vortex.
Black shirt guy is me!

 

Fixed! thank you.

 

Just gonna wait and see...

 

RPG's throughout history have used dice as part of combat and skill checks. Every RPG (computer/console/paper) I have played all had some component related to rolling dice for outcomes. D&D is born and breed off dice rolls, so I have a hard time imagining any RPG without random elements based on chance. Not sure how floating up cards, which give you more control than a dice roll, would be any different.

 

Ditto

 

Yeah, I'll just wait and see, especially how it relates to a different environment compared to proper card/board games. Having said that, I'm really enjoying the browser game called "Card Hunter" and I would be intrigued to test something similar to that system in SotA.

 

This is exactly right on. This is why SotA isn't a first person shooter or a streetfighter-like combat game based upon how fast you move your joystick, or how accurate you shoot the bullet. In an RPG we should be able to place ourselves and let combat play out naturally, while still being able to controle the basic movements of the character. Therefore skill in this game will not be just how fast and accurate you hit your controller, but rather on how well ballanced your strategy and plan of attack mixed with a bit of realistic character movement.

 

Chris wouldn't have to mention it adds luck if that wasn't something unexpected, unusual or atypical. Just sayin'.

And the part of randomness I don't like is how it affects the UI, hence why I said "via this specific mechanic".

I want SotA combat to challenging, fun, dynamic, and/or random and/or procedural. But I don't want to fight a random UI. There are many, many other better ways to create challenging dynamic combat, IF it turns out the random UI element of this system isn't optional.

This system, as described, does not offer "more control" than the typical UI of simply using the skills you have bound to your hotkeys.

 

I meant more control over hidden dice rolls. Personally I am not going to get upset about a UI component that does not exist yet. I understand the concerns on fighting the UI, but I don't want to just be hitting the same button over and over.

One of the most interesting combat systems I played was in an Xbox game called Gladuis. It was a Gladitor game, but different characters had different attacks which each had different mini-games. So as each of your Gladitor team got to take their turn you had to manage through the mini-game to land the best attack possible. Now I am not into mini-games, but the way they laid these out you were always engaged during the combat. If you were not engaged you would loose the battle. This is a random UI, but I never felt I was fighting it. Each mini-game matched the feel of the attack and complicated attacks were hard to pull off than easy ones.

Regardless of the UI, I want the combat to be engaging and representative to the phasing and combat. I do not want some twitch-fest, Halo-monging boring mishmash of other games, so I am remain open to what the Devs plan to show us when they get it setup. RG also said he was very skeptical of Chris' combat suggestion, but he seems to find it interesting enough to try it out.

 

You know in UO you had 30 spells and 30 buttons to choose from in combat so you didnt hit the same button all the time, you had to hit the right button on right time depending on you were defending/attacking. That took more playerskills then and game created afterwards. Timing and twitch was needed to perform well, it was playerskill when it was at it's best. The better player deserved to win the 100 out of 100 duels cause he had been practicing his skills and performed better then the new guy. PvP was not about getting a lucky random card or card combo.

This cardgame with random cards popping up for some seconds sound just as i feared, a slow paced, little skilldemanding system with no PvP flow and a system where luck will have a too important role. Saying some cards together create a better spell is not adding anything to the game, just make it more lucky. If developers want that in the game then they can just add a random system to my spells i have on my keyboard buttons, sometiomes when i cast fireball it becomes stronger, a poor system indeed but same effect as cards.

And why add a cardsystem to just get spells that is defensive, crowdcontrolling and attacking, that is just nerfing the playerskills needed. Being able to use them all by pressing my keyboard buttons make me defend, crowdcontrol and attack at will, my hands is not tied on my back by some cards forcing me to use them and not the spell i would have choosen otherwise. It's nothing but amazing developers choose cards instead of keyboard buttons.

RG were part of the team that created the so far best ever magic system so why not use the best?

 

I think Umbrae's point was that it doesn't require the fast twitch reactions of some of the high intensity real time games. UO still had a lot of random elements to it. The speed you swing your weapon was based upon the speed of the item + the level of your dex determined when your weapon would strike + Str determined how hard you hit... then there was tactics, anatomy, your weapon skill etc. You had some factors to evaluate and optimize to make sure you were more likely to hit, how fast you hit, how hard you hit, and how early in the swing your weapon would strike. Also if your weapon was slower than your opponent's weapon it was a good tactic to swing and move around and time your next swing at the opponent. Luck (or chance) came into play as there was a percent chance to hit your opponent based upon your weapon skill minus the percentage of the weapon skill of your opponent.

So in UO there were some tactics but the tactics weren't all fast twitch high paced. I think that's what SotA will also aim for. Our strategies will not be completely based on how fast we can move our controllers. A big part of our skill as a warrior will be based on how you prepared your character by training the right skills, and assembling the right tactics. There will be skills both with our controllers, and with our strategies, but "the game of chance" is a big part of a role playing game.

 

Caveat: I've had too much to drink.

What I would like to say is this, listening to (parts of) the video that Vjek quoted, all this card-talk is fine, but what seems to be lacking is the passion, the excitement, the drama, that's not coming across at all.

When I look at successful single-sharded games like EVE they're in the press because of the excitement around it. When something big goes down it is projected across numerous tech sites, it gets as far as the BBC!

It isn't clear to me how a card / chance base game can capture the publics' imagination and instil the kind of outside interest that a game like this will require to project it's user base beyond the 25 K users that it currently has. Granted for a pre-alpha game that may be good, but there's a bigger picture here. There's a real danger that by trying to do something too innovative/niche it alienates potential supporters.

Now I have (beer/tunnel) vision about what I think would be good, so bare with me, but I'm struggling to understand how a card-based combat can promote user-based storytelling and combat. Having said that, as long as it is relatively fast-paced and fluid then maybe it would work, but for me at least, sitting down and shuffling a deck of 30 cards is a passion killer.

A contrived example... I'm sat in my Lord's wizard tower or whatever along with my loyal man-servant Heimlich and ever-faithful companion TinTin the dog. Suddenly, in bursts some rabble demanding my head, the honour of ladies is insulted, swords are drawn, mighty oaths are sworn... VR helmets are donned, the air crackles as Magick gathers, TinTin scurries away into the corner, the sky outside darkens... and then... cards are drawn!?!

Please note you shouldn't take the above too seriously, it is somewhat aggagerated, somewhat in jest, and I'm firmly in the wait-and-see camp, but the above does contain some of my fears about a lack of passion being projected and potential "buzz" to be generated from combat. If a card based system, when its shown, proves to be an adequate vehicle to support fluid combat then you can bend me over and slap me thrice and I'll be as happy as any of you!

Roll on December/Alpha!

 

I'm game for anything different. We'll just have to wait and see....

 

If you like you can email firelotus and transfer your pledge to my account. Thanks in advance.

 

Twitch or like i rather call it timing your spells was never about the speed you hit your button with but the timing you managed to perform hitting that spell button. This is something many dont understand when it comes to UO magic system. Timing was way more important then twitch. Best players were not the best cause they pressed thousand buttons in 5 seconds they were best cause they pressed them at the right time (there were also alot of tactics to UO magic system also but i am trying to describe the difference btw twitch and timing here). Timing was also a big part why UO magic system was so hard to master. A player had to react at the right moment which had very little to do with being the fastest button pressing player.

An example:If i were poisoned and my opponent continued to cast the fast spell harm to disturb my cure poison spell and he was good timing his harm spells so they continually made it impossible for me to cure myself then i had to cast a fast spell on my opponent (tactics) to get his spell rhytm down and i could manage to get a cure poison spell casted on myself. That took alot of timing and alot of practice.

Making melee interesting is fine but i am more interested in making the magic system interesting and i dont believe this card system will create that.

 

Not enough information to judge anything.

I would like the idea of a card game for a dualing option, for those who don't like PvP ... the card option might be a lot of fun, and depending on how the cards were aquired, might make it a really nifty dualing solution in the role-play community.

*shrugs*

But either way, as long as its exciting I'm up for looking at it. All the "other" MMORPG games that have "normal" mob combat, have a wide range of "yawn to wow" in their mob combat, so I dont see why a card solution couldn't have its own "wow" factor, and NO I dont mean World of Warcraft. I've seen my kids play some of the online card games, and it looks pretty fun and they get excited.