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Upcoming Economic Balance Changes

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DarkStarr, Sep 9, 2016.

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  1. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

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    All of the features intended to be in for "release" are not in yet. It would be very confusign to call it released in that state.

    The ones who willa rgue with you that it is not "released" are specifically refering to the feature complete release of episode 1, which is thier initial, un-expanded game
     
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  2. Krohon

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    Indeed, I believe is a planned feature. We already have the price of some items (repair kits, coal ... ).


    Going back to the OP. Maybe some people do not realize what that mean. Example, if a typical player has 4.000 gp, the top 10% has 81 times more, that is, 244.000 gp in average. Not just the stuff on vendors and hoarded, it's gold pieces. Are they playing 81 times more than the average player? No way.
     
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  3. Krohon

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    Maybe some cheap reagents will do...

    Hey, what about some "premium" reagents for more powerful spells? That is, a more powerful version of the spell available to cast at a cost of, say 10x the normal reagents. Only rich would do it, a great way to somewhat drain their gold.
     
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  4. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    @DarkStarr First off, thank you for taking the time to address the issues with the current game economy and actively trying to fix them.

    Having had time to think about this after reading the current thread, I have a few ideas which I believe could help fix some of the current economic problems in the game.

    The first is the idea of "PRT marketplaces". Portalarium would create various PRT marketplaces outside of the major economic centers in the game world. I'm thinking Brittany, Ardoris, Aerie and Owl's Head, though the Port team would have the definitive numbers on which areas make the most sense. Inside these PRTs there wouldn't be any deeds but rather market stalls. Players would not have to buy lot deeds, but rather pay a "stall fee" per week for the cost of renting out that space within the market. They then would be able to place their vendor at that stall, should they so choose. Portalarium would need to identify a fair amount for the rent (maybe $500-$1,000 per week to start), but a flat weekly fee also avoids the confusion and frustration associated with daily rent/taxes. The market would then be split into different sections, like a Smithing Quarter, Commodities Quarter, Tailors Quarter, etc that would help identify what types of goods players are selling on those vendors within the marketplace. To further streamline this process within the center of the marketplace there would be a bulletin board which would serve a number of purposes. The first being a search tool, where the player can type in what type of good they are looking to buy and see if it's available. This would obviously create the efficiency of not having to talk to every vendor in the area you are looking to buy something. If a product has been found via this search it would list the vendor and the price. Once the player has decided on which vendor they wished to purchase said good from, they would simply click on that vendors name and the corresponding stall would be highlighted for the player to be able to run over to. Similar, obviously, to the current town crier system in locating a lot. Another purpose of the bulletin board would be for when a player cannot find said item. In this instance a player would be able to list exactly what type of product they wanted and for what price. Sellers would then be able to identify potential buyers and buyers could negotiate the best price. Lastly, in order to protect those "mom and pop" stores that don't want or cannot afford to rent a stall in the marketplace, the bulletin board will also list their vendors when a player searches for an item, but only regionally. For example, a buyer looks on Owl's Head Marketplace Bulletin Board for a sword +5, the bulletin board would pull up all possible sellers within the Owl's Head Marketplace and the immediate area, which in this example would be the Hidden Vale (all vendors in NPC, PRT & POT). The buyer could then opt for the more expedient option of buying the sword in the marketplace or possibly getting it for cheaper at another vendor outside the marketplace, but the buyer would then have the time loss of trying find the vendor once they got into said NPC town, PRT or POT.

    The second is a minimal increase in gold drops in higher level zones, by gold carrying enemies (no wolves, spiders, etc) and an overhaul to how repairs to arms and armor is done. The higher the skull level the higher potential amount of gold that enemy would drop. Now before anyone jumps down my throat we are talking a MINIMAL increase, where the possible max drop in a five skull area would be around 80 gp. This increase benefits crafters in the long run anyway. The reason this is a necessity is because some folks don't like to craft and/or gather resources and this is their primary source of income. Under the current release, the average player can expect to make around $1K in an hour solely by grinding mobs, a minimal increase of gold, combined with whatever loot was dropped could easily increase this number to $2-3K an hour. Which in turn would then be used to BUY better weapons, armor and deco from player vendors in a centrally located marketplace. ;) Along this line the repair system would need to be updated. Repair kits could still be purchased and used much as they are now, but COTOS would not. First off, the idea that a gold coin can magically fix my equipment is just silly. Paying lot taxes makes sense, but repairing equipment does not. The only way to repair max durability would be to take your equipment to a player vendor who has the skill level (this is a skill based system is it not) appropriate enough to repair said item or do it yourself. The stronger the weapon, the higher the skill level needed to repair the item. If a player needs a repair of equipment he/she simply heads to the BB in one of the aforementioned marketplaces and searches for vendors (not players) who can do the work. Player repair level would be tied to their vendor so the player doing the repairs doesn't have to be online to actually do the work. Their vendor can do it in their stead. This way it's more efficient for both the player in need of immediate repairs seeking the most competitive price and the crafter who may not be online and able to do the work. Repairs in this manner would also require an increased amount of resources in order to complete. In doing so, the cost of repairs would fluctuate with the current prices of the resources needed to be used. This of course would benefit the resource seller and consumer by keeper repair prices in check through competition.

    Now here's how all this tied together COULD balance the economy. The current economic model has a completely unbalanced "money in, money out" (MIMO) problem where too much money is going out of the economy without enough circulating player to player. Buying goods from a player vendor puts money into the economy, while buying goods from an NPC vendor takes money out of the economy. Lot taxes also act as a money out mechanism which, at their current levels, take a sizable chunk of discretionary money out of the economy that could be used to buy player goods. Having said that money out is a necessity as it helps control inflation by decreasing how much money is currently in the game. Taxes on lots is a great way to do this, if there is enough money circulating in the economy. Unfortunately, as we all know, there is not, as 90% of all players are poor. So here's how this could work. Adventurers (players who make money solely by killing mobs) are typically a crafters largest consumer demographic in the game. If you're a crafter, you're not selling your weapons or armor to other crafters. You're selling them to adventurers. If you make deco, you're in luck, adventurers like a nice pimped out fresh pad to rest their weary bones. I know I do! :D Sadly, this release the money the average player adventurer makes has been drastically reduced where tough decisions need to be made. Do I pay my taxes or buy that sword? Buying that sword would put money into the economy while paying lot taxes takes money out of the economy, but if I don't pay my taxes I lose my lot. So we pay our lot taxes and the money goes out of the game economy. Therefore, by increasing the amount of gold dropped in higher level areas, you thereby increase the amount of discretionary income adventurers have to spend on new armor, weapons, repairs and deco. ALONG with paying taxes of course. Now that I have this extra money to spend, where can I go to find the best prices for what I need? The marketplace of course! :) Buying that new weapon, armor or furniture would put money back into the economy as would repairs. Crafters would then benefit from an increased amount of exposure to their vendors through this new marketplace, leading to an increased in actualized profits. At the same time they would be able to utilize the marketplace BB to source the cheapest resources necessary to create their goods and do repairs, all of which continues to keep money in the game economy. Gatherers selling resources on their vendors would be able to benefit greatly by utilizing said marketplaces as a commodities exchange of sorts. Where fluctuation of resource prices on the marketplace BB, predicated on demand, would lead to both increased profits and the amount of money kept in the economy. All of which would be due to player consumption of player crafted goods. Finally, here's why the actual marketplace is necessary and not just a bulletin board. Multiple marketplaces create and sustain regional economies within the areas they are located by driving player to player sales. It acts as a secondary mechanism by which "stall rent fees" takes money out of the economy, helping keep in check possible inflationary pricing. Lastly, it creates a fun and unique environment for players to meet with other players to buy and sell goods. :)

    At any rate, just some thoughts.
     
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  5. Mitara

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    What you are saying is that they have not advertised that the game has been launched, but the game HAS been launched... Happens the moment they charge you for playing.
     
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  6. Talewin

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    I don't believe any of these changes will work. they will help a few people but they will not shift the balance of who has the money and how much that have.

    this is meant to be a player based economy but there are flaws and they are big.

    first and foremost is that everyone can easly do everything and essentially can be self-sufficient.

    ( the only thing I buy from vendors is crafting regs. and the occasional item that had a price as a typo.)

    the second thing is having any items that completely remove someone from the market.

    Coto's for repairing high end gear. (I know people say the meta with change and they will still buy new gear. but that does not change the fact that this person is still out of the market for those items. the items are still forever in game even if it's collecting dust in a chest until its used again)

    want to fix the player based economy.

    make crafting skills much harder. they need to be so hard that a player needs to basicly pick 1 skill tree and focas on it to be effective. so gathers havs no real choice but to sell the raw resource to the refiners. and the refiners have to sell to the producers and the producers have to sell to the open market. prices will sort them self out.

    make Cotos only repair an item to -15% of Max value and change the max value to match. this would allow for a nice long usage of that really nice item but in time it would need replacing. and polarium still has their coto cash cow.

    and reduce the weight on all weapons/armor dropped by 25%. allowing players to carry more before haveing to go sell up.

    thanks for reading. (I have my fire protection spell on and ready to catch fire balls)
     
  7. Roycestein Kaelstrom

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    Can you elaborate more on how would you make crafting skills to become so hard? Like require more resources? Make resources much heavier or increase crafting time?
     
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  8. majoria70

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    Great feedback!
     
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  9. Mirjhaf Uth'Mathar

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    To slow down a bit the Skill gained, in Adventurer or Crafting tree.
    Portalarium, need to add a '' Switch System '' , when the Xp is Gained.
    When the switch is at Adventurer, 80% xp gained go in Adventurer Tree, and 20% in crafting tree..
    When the Switch is at Crafting, 80% xp gained go to Crafting Tree, and 20% in Adventurer tree, or something like that.. its very bad, the XP Gained, go 100% in both tree..

    i'm at 57 adventurer lvl, and my Crafting tree as 188 241xp in my pool.. lol almost never did any crafting,
    imagine, when i'm going to lvl in crafting, how speedly i'm going to raise my Crafting Skill

    Mir
     
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  10. Dariog

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    Agreed. Interesting ideas, @Cordelayne.
     
  11. Talewin

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    I think there a number of ways this can be done and no single method is the end all be all answer.

    requiring more xp to level up.
    adding more skills to add more specialization with in the craft.
    requiring more resources at low level and become more efficient at high levels so people have to be committed to the craft.

    these are just a few ideas off the top of my head. I'm sure other people could think of other ideals. there is no single major answer. it needs a bunch of minor answer working together.

    there should also be areas just for the crafters a true crafter doesn't want to fight. but the area needs to be challenging in a way that is for crafters. maybe a mine that has silver nodes that require 150 mining to even think about harvesting.

    or is so deep under ground it takes 15 mins to run to and longer to run out because of being loaded down. but the rewardsevers for going there are high.
     
  12. Lace

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    @DarkStarr Without understanding what you mean here could not higher players game this? ... food for thought ahead of time and not seeing it on QA
     
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  13. Lace

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    @DarkStarr Personal Opinon that many will hate .. I hate this idea. It is supposed to be 'sandbox' and no ? or ! and now you are making it like that.

    Food for thought.
     
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  14. Lace

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    Folks will hate my reply to this but what about those that choose to ignore the oracle from the start and choose no path that they actively pursue .. they are to be ham-stringed from this daily or forced to comply now?

    @DarkStarr Food for thought
     
  15. Time Lord

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    Risk = Reward;

    It's been our tradition from the very beginning of Kickstarter. We risked the real $ to back the game and there's little difference between then and the new player now.

    Tie skill advancement to yield with a decreasing value.

    ~Letting the High Altitude Air Out Problem~
    Tie in game gold to COTO and allow COTO to purchase cool stuff from the Add-On Store (as planned) <---<<< But there's a problem with that by it's increase in created items work load and game designers rarely work for in game gold?

    ~Gold Sump at the Highest Levels~
    (aka. The return of Time Lord's Cannibal)

    Energy = Consumption

    Bring on the Eating!
    A low energy player burns less calories.
    The higher energy player burns more calories.

    Bring on the Damage!
    A low level damaging encounter damages less.
    A high energy encounter damages equipment more.

    Bring on the Skill's Reward!
    A star that slow burns it's life lasts the longest.
    A star that burns twice as bright sees into the dangers of the darkness much more but their life constantly depends on consuming more.


    ~Nystal~
     
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  16. Tanglewood

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    I am personally a fan of some of the changes - I reckon the Oracle 500gp is a good one. I had a friend who lost their property last week in fact because they didn't have time to get the gold to pay the taxes (and they only had a row-lot) - they were a bit disappointed since they bought the deed for lot-selection and got a decent location in release 32. By at least having an easy way to get gold to help cover some of the taxes, it means that new players to the game will not have this happen and also means they don't have to grind each night to merely cover the tax. The town crier and quest gold improvements are also a good idea as this is targeted specifically to new/low level characters - longer-term players will not have access to this.
     
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  17. Talewin

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    another change that needs to happen. items need to stop being lost as part of the masterworking or enchanting step. this causes huge increases in the cost to make items. or at the very least you lose the item only on a extreme critical fail. the randomness of the bonus is fine.

    instead of a full loss of the item have a fail result in durability loss with no bonus stat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
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  18. Jaanelle DeJure

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    It's semantics, but in this case it ia referring to the full release of Episode 1.

    Right now... we're kind of in the prologue. You could think of it this way: $45 sponsors about an hour of work on the game.

    We're only in the second month since persistence, and of course flushing out many economic issues is dependent upon that foundation.

    It's to be expected the economy is broken, and I seriously doubt that Portalarium believes the changes introduced here are the final solution, but rather more like stopgap measures to ensure that new players can find enough gold to at least keep playing.

    Besides taxing the "rich" and tweaking gold sinks, it actually takes the "rich" voluntarily spending their gold on player made items in order for the economy to work.

    That's been the plan all along, as near as I can tell. It's just not there yet. Which is one reason the game is still in "pre-release".
     
  19. Jaanelle DeJure

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    I asked this elsewhere, and apparently LB is comfortable with the fact that some players are going to ignore the Oracle. It's "strongly encouraged" to visit the Oracle, but not a strict requirement.
     
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  20. Wintermute of CoF

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    As explained, I have got nothing to lose by leaving them at the current price. It costs me 11% of the price to see if you think my lower price is "ridiculous overpriced" too, what incentive have I got to do that?

    Private vendors are the same price as public vendors in this regard, just without the 7 day "sell your +7 sword for 110 gold" feature. The commission free vendors are only available as pledge rewards AFAIK.
     
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