Really let new players decide their build

Untie starting weapons/magic from starting areas and the Oracle Test. Figure out a new way for players to select their early interests.

• Bonus! I don't have to hear new players tell me they really wanted to use a mace/harlberd/shield/all these other magic trees, they are being what they want to be!

Edit: Evidently the test part is very important, so I'd like to pivot to "Make every tree available during the test and as soon as possible to prevent New Players from feeling like they are forced down one of three specific paths."

 

Agree 100%

 

+1

It doesn't make sense anyway

 

Absolutely.
I did the oracle quiz, got given the Path of Truth, and then was told it meant I was a mage. I mean come on, Truth, that bunch of devious magic-using dress wearers?

But I agree with the OP the path and the choice of weapons are entirely malleable anyway so why push it on new players who may think they are stuck with it?
In any case the first thing they do to you on the mage path is stick a sword in your hand

It would be better to ask if they prefer to wear a steam engine or a posh frock

 

@Cobra101 Lol! A test I can get behind! One posh frock please!

 

At least now you have a choice. When i started I didnt really have a choice. No matter how i answered I was still flung into Path of Love as that was the only one that was remotely finished. Was sent to Solace Bridge. Not really sure how it works now. I restarted an avatar on my daughter's just after R40 and answered the questions totally different and still sent me to Solace. So not sure what i answered that flung me there again. LOL. But yeah it needs to be more of letting them decide than it is. Alot of newer folks coming in that i have met seriously have no clue what they are doing. And if they leave the starter area they are totally lost. Would be nice if they could be assigned someone in game to help them if they want...Hospitality staff members.

 

@Belladonna Rose I see you found my other thread. I'm not sure if you are talking the same thing as we are in this one. Specifically this is "Why can't I swing a Mace and use a Shield at the start, WITH that load of extra points that Rangers get in their Bow tree? Why do I HAVE to use Swords or Bows? Why isn't there a starting setup system that lets me choose exactly what I want to begin with?"

 

We've been over this repeatedly. If you can convince @Lord British to change what has been a key feature of his games for 20 years, more power to you...

 

I was going to invoke the Lum last night, but it appears he was summoned regardless. This has been brought up MANY times.

I still think we need to be allowed to pick as well, but the big dude is keeping his foot down.

 

@Lord British Why can't I start with a shield? It's sitting right there, along with a Mace, and yet I get no points in my shield skill as I use it in the opening scenes. My Mace starts at 10 points instead of 70, which I have in Archery, and like many new players didn't want to use in the first place!

(Disclaimer: This is for new players, I actually do use archery in the game at this point, although if I were starting from scratch and not "pushed" into archery I would probably pick up that mace and shield. because it's what I secretly wanted all along. Instead went with what the game TOLD me to do. For those rebels who do so anyway, they get to see 70 points in their Archery tree and 10 in the tree they are actually using.)

 

Well can the big dude keep his foot down and still open up the other skill trees? I like character creation tests too, but not when the only result is a fraction of the available options.

Imagine Jagged Alliance 2 not having any questions that let you go Melee?

 

At the point when you start how many points in which tree is not the first thought in your mind.

At present they are pushing Solace Bridge (= Bow) because it is the most polished. That is absolutely fine. We don't want people seeing the mangy wolves in Blood River or the tatty elves in Highvale until they've been smartened up a bit.

If you want to start a mage with points in the right tree just ignore the message to "choose bow" in the test. My mage chose path of Truth and started in Blood River without any trouble. You just have to be firm

 

That "70" in archery tree is very misleading though. 70 in the base skill alone is way more XP than 30, 20, and 20 in 3 skills. Exponentially so. In reality, it is not much XP. The first one or two quests you do makes up the difference. This can be explained in the tutorial. You "started" with natural skills, but you can pick up anything new.

I can find real numbers tonight if you like.

 

And which of the 8 or so schools of magic did you start with? Because I think unless you wanted fire (probably very popular, but certainly not 100%) then you got all your points in something you didn't want.

Same with melee, unless you want blades, you just wasted all your starting points.

I understand that this may be on the design for fixing later, and opening up every starting build at that point, but I will say again, it's making new players unhappy right now, so I think it should be toward the top of the "To Do" list.

 

You may be able to explain it away, but think psychologically. For the rest of the game you see that number staring you in the face. Eventually it doesn't bother you, but how long until then?

I suppose another approach would be to just let them respec at the Outskirts, TOTALLY wipe, not fake wipe down to minimum, a tree and put it in their hearts desire.

 

OR, explain right away that lvl 20 still means inept. Tell them you are just from Earth and still really weak, you will gain skill and strength by USE here in NB. Work the psychology from the start rather than letting it be nebulous.

 

Actually, I would suggest dropping the "You have chosen the PATH..." and replace with "You have shown affinity for..." and then mention that it is up to you to choose your PATH now. Still start the same way, you just know that you have a choice now.

 

The problem is psychology. Give a monkey an apple, and he's a happy monkey. Give a monkey two apples, and he's a happy monkey. Take away one of those two apples and you have a very pissed off monkey.

Great idea! Still needs all the skills available though.

 

Point taken.
As it happens I did want fire - and air but I got the points in fire.

If I had had pretensions of necromancy ( or lunacy?) that might not have been for me.

It wouldn't be too hard to extend the initial oracle interview to include that detail without breaking the basic concept of the paths

eg: Q. You are confronted by a fierce bear do you

1. Fry it till crispy
2. Blow it over the next ridge
3. Suck out its vital essence
4. etc etc

You're never going to cope with every possible permutation at day one.
Some weapons or schools of magic do just take more skill than others

However it is dancing dangerously close to classes

 

The entire problem is that the introduction and selection of virtue is a way of selecting your class in Ultima, but in Shroud of the Avatar we have a classless system. Forcing them to exist simultaneously is not rewarding to the player, nor does it take into account the way players want to play.

Here is my suggestion for @Lord British :

• The Oracle's Virtue test on the Isle of Storms should continue to determine what starting area you visit. This makes sense, so that your natural inclinations lead directly to confrontations based on your decisions.
  
• All players should start will a small number of "general" skills. These will allow players to have a good starting point regardless of which direction they choose to advance.
  
  • I would suggest a small number of points (10?) in each of these skills:
    
  • Tactics Tree: Healthy, Armor Preservation, Weapon Preservation, Train Strength, Heavy Lifter, Parry
  • Subterfuge Tree: Distract, Train Dexterity
  • Focus Tree: Heightened Awareness, Mind Wipe, Train Intelligence, Quick Swapping
  • Taming Tree: Tame Creature, Summoning, Heal Creature
    
  • Light Armor: Dodge
  • Heavy Armor: Glancing Blow
  • Shield: Deflect
  • Blades: Blades Combat
  • Bludgeon: Bludgeon Combat
    
  • Polearms: Polearms Combat
  • Ranged: Ranged Combat
• In each of the beginning areas, rather than having Edvard immediately start attacking once you talk to him, instead have him offer to show the player how to use their preferred weapon or introductory spell. This will increase that skill to 50 or so, and give players a pool of xp that they can start applying to skills during the next combat. This not only provides players just what they want to play, but makes this sequence of interacting with Edvard and knowing that combat is coming up more pronounced; there is lots of feedback about how abrupt this is, and how he mows down enemies without the players even being ready. He should also wait to head off until the players say they are ready.
  
• After the combat is done, before they player leaves to head to the Outskirts scene, Edvard should give them an optional challenge. This would be to challenge a dangerous, to newbies, creature (Courage), give a healing potion to a wounded survivor (Love), etc. Something that they can do to advance their Virtue, but optional. Introduce them to the ethical considerations of their actions before they get into multiplayer.