Make reddit more positive.. attempt 2

For sure, there is much that can be done to improve their communication strategy. In fact, Chris often talks about what a poor job he thinks they do communicating.

What sort of policy changes do you think might engender a better outcome?

 

I understand that a lot of the folks on this forum have tons of time, money and emotion invested into SotA. They want to see it succeed. I've got to say, though, that people who voice criticism of the game, especially on this forum, really do get pounded for their views. As bad as Reddit is at being negative, this forum tends to go to the opposite extreme. Not everyone who criticizes SotA is a troll. Some of them are actually concerned about the game's development and future and may have some ideas worth listening to. If someone says "I hate SotA" and leaves it at that, they're probably a troll. If they say "I hate SotA because," and lists some actual reasons, they may really care and have some valid points.

 

Nothing is wrong with that, that is what the subreddit is. If Port wants to join in that conversation then they should understand that you cannot go in there with attempted force, but instead temper the tongue with honey.

This is something that might be unique to every individual. I'm not sure I can speak for everyone. I can say that people have been emotionally invested in this game. They backed it because of the man who founded the genre. Some people will not understand about the emotional link. But some people will be like spoony. You will understand if you watched his reviews. I do not think its an effort to drag people down but instead a plea for people to understand what they are saying. Port is well known for its silence. It makes people crazy when they have no reciprocation at all. It makes people wonder if they are even being heard. This is where a good community manager should step in and intervene. They should address the problem saying: "We hear you but we do not have an answer right now."
That at least is a response.

This statement makes one wonder why they hang on. I would surmise is because they have an honest beef with the way things where handled. If they where simply jackasses then sure they probably would move on. But if they think they are actually right then they will fight longer, possibly forever, because they need to be vindicated.

Birds of a feather flock together. Even people that normally do not get along will join forces for a bigger enemy. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

 

I've gotta say that this statement runs counter to my own experience. Not that we have to have the same experience, of course.

Are you referring to criticism about the game itself? Or criticism about community management? The second I would be more inclined to agree with.

Of course not. But people who voice the same criticism over and over again- particularly in threads that others started for different purposes- are engaging in trolling.

I understand there are particular concerns that certain people have voiced which have not really been fully addressed by the devs. But I think we all know what they are by now, and that's kind of the point here. It's all "out there" for anybody to find who wants to know about it. We don't need to talk about it over and over and over again. $h!t happened. The devs probably made some mistakes, and handled some things poorly. Whoops, they're human after all.

This justifies a relentless attack on their very livelihood?

If they really cared, they could try to lead with "I love SotA because"... and then proceed to their valid points about what could be better.

But in all seriousness, I feel that I have seen more "valid points" listened to and addressed directly by the dev team in the last few months than I could even recount. *shrug* I guess our perspectives are just at odds with one another.

 

Than why bring up that there was a contradiction in the first place?

And no all of Chris' quotes from reddit on the MMO label were consistent, and they did not claim to call it an MMO in the beginning.

 

Does anybody else find it very curious that we appear to have members here who BOTH feel that they cannot express positivity OR negativity about the game without being jumped on, and attacked in PM?

That sort of thing causes me to wonder if there is some other hidden factor at play that is contributing to both experiences.

 

My take is this.

The culture on this forums is not one of reaching shared understandings of different opinions.

Decay versus no decay

Single player versus online mechanics

Pvp versus Pcs.

Consistent feedback when things are broken versus a desire to see three not repeated.

These topics, and many more cause fights where both parties fail spectacularly from understanding why they each hold their versions of the facts.

This is compounded by moderation that errs on the side of positivity over critique and moderation of personal attacks towards supporters but not as aggressive when the victims are voicing concerns.

Lastly, the combative way the devs engage outside the forums.

So I don't think the reasons are hidden do much as there is a dispute over whether we matter.

 

Discussion going well overall guys, I'm impressed! A debate without too heavy of attacks on each other with this notable exception...

"Why I would subject myself to a cesspool sub on Reddit in order to learn about this game is an incomprehensible question to me."

Reddit is an awesome community, I use the site ALL the time personally. Let's try not to throw the entire reddit community under the bus because of a few that are frustrated or annoyed, and are simply loud about it (keep in mind that not all trolls are trolls... some just don't know how to express their emotions without projecting this behavior). Yes, there are trolls out there, but this is a vastly small group we're talking about in the grand scheme of the community.

What we need to tackle is reducing the loud noise (through dialog if possible) so that they give the chance for everyone else to speak there, for those redditors that are not causing problems for the rest. Will our answers further frustrate some? Quite possible, and that's ok, as we can't please everyone and won't be able to make the perfect game for everyone, but at least we can manage the dialog in a way that helps at least reduce the knee-jerk toxic behavior. I'm sorry if Chris's latest reddit comments got people on edge, we will work on it better in the future.

I think it will help here, on reddit, and everywhere else our community grows into, if we keep in mind that our community is around a game that has fundamentally different types of play styles meshed together... PvE, PvP, etc. etc. ALL are welcome here, and as long as everyone accepts that fact and doesn't argue together to try and dominate one or the other types of play styles, then I think we'll make progress on the challenge of the OP's topic, and right here in our forums.

 

I see more of a meta version of this going on:

People who take extreme one-sided views of the game (positive or negative) vs people who see it as a mix of both

People who want to rant/rave vs people who want to have a civil discussion

People who are only interested in one aspect of the game vs people who play a little bit of everything

People who want to talk about broken promises or make dire prophecies for the future of the game vs people who want to focus on what can be done in the here and now

If you ask me.. the people in the second category of all those examples are who really get marginalized around this forum.

My opinion here is that moderation errs on the side of whomever makes the reports, which I would assume are more frequently by those with a low tolerance for negativity or conflict. I often wonder if there are some people who abuse the reporting system to harass others they don't like, for whatever reason.

Well I am sure there are more skillful ways to handle the situation, on all sides.

I'm not sure what you mean. If who matters?

 

I would make some additional comments, but they are quite unnecessary.

 

[removing quoted person to remove a perception of being targeted]

Moderation is much more indepth than whomever reports something (but reporting is still very important!). We don't see "You should moderate this because I don't like their post" and immediately respond in kind because we like the reporter... we don't do that. Let's please stick with facts, or at least not wild assumptions if possible. It's these sort of rumors that everyone latches onto and then it takes me days to try to explain them .

As I've explained many times to others in PM and elsewhere, and this is important... we never make it personal. I know that some don't like how we moderate and project a "personal vendetta" on our determinations, or assume someone reported them, etc... anything to not take personal responsibility. At the end of the day, it's not personal.

This is also why moderation is almost entirely made only when the community is projecting a personal tone on arguments... if you post an attack on others, calling out someone by name specifically to demean them or other negative connotations, then we moderate it to ensure derailing of a discussion doesn't occur. This is the central tenant of what you see when moderation does happen to occur... if personal jabs, attacks, arguments, derailings, etc., disappeared from the forums, so would much of the moderation.

Now that I've overused the word "personal" for today, back on topic, reddit!!

 

Here's my take: I haven't played or streamed SotA in quite awhile due to burning out to a degree and now due to mechanics changing which I'd rather see a stable design decision made on before putting in another 870 hours of gameplay, cash in the shop or backing telethons.

When I want to find something out it seems a matter of here, steam forums, reddit and maybe some guild discord of people i played with extensively for their take and to compile what information is out there.

My biggest concern at the moment is Portalarium's current financial info seeming like the last telethon only funds 2 more months and saying chapter one will be out in July if I read correctly? Unfortunately it seems like you have to go to Reddit for certain topics when they get locked and posts deleted to just figure out what's going on especially if you're not keeping up even monthly.

 

Reddit. Sorry, using pronouns from my first post.

As for the rest I agree that's the case that it's moderates that are the real sufferers.

For me, I was always moderate on these forums but I still was treated pretty badly by some vocal community members for giving feedback that didn't match the mostly positive narrative.

I was unsatisfied that me "disagreeing" with someone and never editorializing on the person, just the position, saw my posts deleted while attacks on my personal character and motives remained even after being reported.

So when you say both sides need to be mature, my experience is one in particular carries a heavier burden to be the example of a fair and open community example then the other.

 

1. Discuss with Facts you can proof. Proof everything you say! Link to it.

If you get arguments that you only listen to a sertant group of players - do not say "No".

Copy paste a link to a post for example proofing your argument is correct.

Like this : https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ith-current-system-solutions.5822/#post-99837

Even so they still will not agree - everyone will see you posted a proof. Done.


2. Do not deny Facts with proofen examples of the dissapointed Gamers. They post them and they will have! Links to proof it

This one requires Balls. There is no denying that you Portalarium failed to deliver on a huge numbers of promises of Kickstarter.

- Admit it!

You will discredit yourself to the ones who read your discussion with a player and he is able to proof it.

Example. Razimus" made a Video complaining about "Pledge Rewards" that had not been delivered.

Family Crests and the option to personel Name a NPC.

If you deny it they will for example post a link of a Video proofing the arguments.



If you then still deny it you shoot yourself in the leg yourself.


3. In the Hotel Business the saying is - the customer is always right.

For example:
If you reveive a complaint about a Kickstarter Promise you made - do not say that it is the customers Error and he missunderstood the meaning. - You do not do that!

You can appologize and admit that he is correct. That you as a Developer did mean something else - does not count. And discussing it will make only customers doublecheck.

And they will 100% understand it just the way the complainer read it

3. Do not force your personnel Philosophy of what you think of Kickstarter Promises and that they are counterproductive for a good development on your Customers.
And say that you do not have to deliver any promise. It happend.
Denying it will lead to links proofing it.

The Customer does not have to understand you - it is the other way around!


You need to understand your customers and they only had your Promise to Invest. And took a risk.

4. How to deal with personel attacks.

You stand above them. That simple.
You do not engage into a fight or get emotional. You are representing your Company!

There is only one way to deal with it.

If you get a personel attack you polite say that you will stop the discussion with this person if he repeats it.

If he does you post: - Stopping here. And out you are!

No emotionel outbreak. You represent you company.

Every reader will be able to see why you left.

Done.


5. Do not create a conspiracy that is not existing.

I could post countless different Names and Post of different players from the internet proofing the fact that it is more then just a handful players unhappy with the Game.


And other customers can see it also.

Face it - Do not blame a small group for your responsibility.


6. Do not use words like - those Reddit Users.

7. If you are in a emotionel State - Do not Post.

8. Actually do not post anything if you have never had any basic course in Public Relation.

9. Maybe invest 3000 Dollars to send your handful of Developers to a Course for "How to engage with your customers in public" before any should post.

10. The Internet does not Forget - No matter if you do a presentation to a school class or whatever.
If a Camera is running. They may use your words later on Reddit.


11. If you see something out of context - do not write it. - post the complete sentence to proof it. The link to the full context.


12. Do not cherry pick the Customers you listen to feedback or the source.

Every Gamer counts. Everyone!
Incl. Reddit.


LAST: You do not make Reddit more positive.

You only can make a good Game and maybe improve your communication.





Thats my suggestions

 

Sigh, I see the last thread was deleted.

Glanced through this thread. Just gonna post stuff in point form because typing takes time and when stuff is deleted instead of locked... you can't even retrieve what you discussed or see what went wrong.

• Yes, some redditors are extremely angry,
• It is possible that port never going to be able to reconcile with them.
• But there are other neutral spectators/posters in reddit.
• While the angry ones might not be your target audience, there are potential members of the public that might be from your "target audience"
• The company needs to portray a positive image in other public areas
• Going over to reddit and then getting angry with others (instead of focusing on clarifying infomation.) gives an extremely bad image of the company to players.
• If there are no legal implications, stating facts and clarifying misinformation should be key

tl:dr:
IMO, Places like reddit and mmorpg are viewed by other potential customers of SotA, it is in the best interest of the company to create, at the very least, a calm and positive image of the company in these areas even if they can't change the general outlook of reddit.

 

I personally try to ride the fence between offending someone, and expressing myself. Sometimes I state that every person Chris may unintentionally insult is just another peg on the 'race to the bottom'. That being said, I too work in a position where I have to deal with people I don't always agree with or enjoy being around. However I do it with a smile on my face everyday, and help them with whatever they need. Its what people expect of me, its what people expect of developers of a game. It sucks to BE that person, who has to have insults flung at them sometimes, but you continue to smile. Im sure some people on Reddit often push things too far, but we cant expect perfection of people who aren't expected to be professional Every person who feels put off, or insulted is going to give this game a negative review somewhere. That ALWAYS has to be in the back of the mind of anyone who represents this game. Every one of those people, is one less sale they could of made.

 

I just wanna point out i agree with preach.
Love that chris made an attempt to answer some stuff on there.. but you could clearly see him get hooked in non productive back n forth.. and it led to missing the important stuff.

 

@Berek you guys have an awesome opportunity right now. Chris's recent conversation opened up dialog, he just needs to finish up. Clamming up now doesn't help, keep talking to them!

Regarding the reviews, we saw the post, those guys were right, so address the issue. A simple "Yep, you're right, I yelled at the culprits like I promised and that's all we can do about a mistake." can go a long way.

Then, spend a bit of time in there addressing issues. There are only a few regular posters in there, and I'm sure each one of them has a specific issue or set of issues that you could talk with them and address either publicly or privately.

Sure, there will still be negative posts, there are here even, that's ok. But if you take the time to address those people as people, and figure out if there is a common ground that can be reached, peace may be reached.

 

I read Chris say somewhere (I think in his blog) he was done with that.

If anyone thinks that reddit is a platform where you can change people's minds,
then try changing some around here and see how far that get's you ~TL~

We can only state our views because all other mind control methods don't work.

 

Don't wanna point out names since I don't know if that was the reason the last post got deleted... perhaps have a person with a thicker skin and more suitable demeanor to do the non-forum talking? RG himself has a pretty silver tongue and might do well.