6-Month Demo!

This is exactly right.

I question it when people say "Have patience and keep your mouths shut". That is groupthink tactics!

That is also how a minority can control the majority. Of course Lord British can do whatever he wants. this is his game not ours. However since I am still under the impression that the devs want to hear all of our opinions to make the best game possible I will continue to share my thoughs, and encourage others to do the same. Don't blame us for pointing it out when people are trying to silence the majority.

However it is really hard for any group to truly be free and open to opposing ideas. Most of us feel strongly about the things we believe. That also means overlooking cultural differences, expectations, and manners too. Some people sound rude when they share their ideas without intending to be rude. Should we disregard that person's ideas just because they were rude? If you've got an issue with control that statement will get into your head.

 

Is this the kind of loot we will find on the Kobold?


It would be nice if you could befriend some creatures, even join sides with them.

 

I loved everything about the demo, except for the combat system. I'm really looking forward to the chat system! A few things I felt could have been improved was that I would like to see fireballs appear a bit less empty around the outsides with perhaps a slimmer body and a longer trail. I'd also love to see them set grass on fire also, even if it doesn't spread. There is just something about seeing a fireball from a dragon hit the ground and nothing catch fire that really just seems wrong! I also like the crafting system, but I think it would also be neat to see the characters animate when they are smithing or smelting. No doubt this is likely planned though. I can't wait to start discovering recipes!

As for the combat system..*Rant below, stop reading now if you don't like to read rants*

To be honest, i've not had a good feeling about the card system from the start. I've been and I remain willing to try it out, but what I saw in the video was simply horrid in my opinion. During the majority of the fight scenes, I missed out on a lot of the game because I kept being drawn to the bars to figure out what options were available for use. I'm not a fan of the random nature of the cards in this type of game less because I dislike randomness but more because I feel randomness should be in the execution of an action not in the ability to decide what action to perform.

It is said that this system is supposed to break the "repetitive" nature of combat, but I feel that this is a very bad way to accomplish that goal. Instead of focusing on randomizing the choices that a player is allowed, why not focus the development on improving the AI so that the actions of creatures require us to be more dynamic in combat situations? -- Instead of mobs that just stand there, why not give them the ability to retreat, summons walls to block us while they heal, teleport up a hill, etc. I know this next line will be taken out of context, so let me first and foremost say that I don't want to see this game become WoW. However, that being said, I believe that WoW did a great job in keeping the player versus player combat dynamic and very entertaining. I watched the fight, not my hotbars. I tracked my allies and made decisions based on what we best for both of us, not what my hotbar alowed me. I knew what I could use and when I could use it because it was predictable, not because it flashed on my hotbar when I was allowed to use it. My choice of what to use was generally decided by the situation my character was in, not because of what card was going to pop out of the deck next. Why not strive to build AI that is a stronger challenge, rather than trying to limit a players ability to play as he desires?

If I wish to play a tempest, why should I only be allowed to throw a lightning bolt at random times while being forced to stand idle until I get the right card? -- Sure I can stack the deck, but why should I be forced to do that in order to play as I desire? Why should I miss parts of the game because i'm trying to see which number I need to press on my keyboard by looking constantly at the hotbar? This isn't to say the animations can't be dynamic, because a spell does not always have to be the same visually. A lightning strike can come from above, it can arc from my hands, it can arc from my target.

I personally feel that this system is bad because it attempts to solve a problem by tweaking the surface of the problem instead of addressing the root of the problem. Want to make this game feel different and something besides the normal grind and repetitive button pressing? Then give me smarter mobs and more utilities(potions, scrolls, traps, spells, specialized arrows/bolts, explosive charges, etc) in combat and out of combat that I can decide when to use, the ability to determine what spell or ability is best by looking at where my character and his allies are and using my own judgement. If a person wants randomness in what they can or can't do, then they can simply not use a spell until they feel enough time has passed. They maintain that option under the traditional system. Under this system, we are forced into their play style without choice.

Place a real challenge before me and release my bindings so that I may write my own story!

 

According to Update of the Avatar 11/01/13 they don't want to hear any feedback until they release an updated version of the combat system. See note below:

[NOTE: Our combat system is in very, very, very early stages of development, so please understand that it will continue to evolve as it is developed, tested, redesigned, etc. We will welcome backer feedback once we've released the combat prototype for play-testing and are prepared to keep enhancing the design until it is fun!]


So it seems they don't want feed back right now. However they are selling a nice new fishing poll. They aren't selling power, but it is an indestructable poll that makes you fish better and faster. So at least that's good right?

 

I understand that they want to be open and show the community what they've acomplished (and there's quite a bit that they should be proud of!). However, if the combat system isn't where they want it to be, then maybe they should have left that out of the video. While the avatars of the forums would still be wondering about combat, they wouldn't be ripping apart the current pre-alpha-alpha system.

 

The issue I feel with that attitude is cutting off your nose (designs) to spite your face.

They should welcome the feedback ASAP. That is a perfect gague of how something is being perceived. EVEN IF some of it is a bad interpretation, you can always just ignore the noise.

Flat out sticking your head in the sand is a horrible way to design anything.

Even in closed systems (traditional design of SW products) you have many other people who give feedback way before a product even hits a pre-alpha; that is the nature of design.

If we did that with our shows, which spend upwards of 9-12 months in pre- and design pipes, holy smokes. By the time those things hit pre-production, they are designed, done. It is way more difficult to change a design on something with a large turning radius like this.

 

One of the problems I have always perceived about just pushing ahead with implementing a system (wait and see!) rather than revising the design early on in the wake of feedback is that once the system is fully in place, it is less likely it will receive any sweeping changes (in the event it is bad). It only ends up getting smaller tweaks to make up for the shortfalls.

 

Ooooh... I love that idea... rather than clicking on flipping cards, you 'set' whether you want to use melee, ranged, or magic (or something to that effect) and click ON your target, and it randomly selects a specific card/move/spell that would affect that part of your opponent's body (or highlight a section of ground for AoE type effects).

 

I don't think they're looking to cut off all feedback. I see that wording more as a response to the general public reaction to a not-ready-for-primetime combat user interface. Chris and Starr are busy drafting a Mega Response Post but that likely won't go out until Monday. They fully expect another 30-page thread to respond to that post. It's unclar if that will be in the general forums or the Dev+ forum.

 

I think it's interesting that because there is so little information on the actual way things are going to work, we end up talking about how to talk about the card system. At least that's all I feel I can do at this point without more info...

 

It concerns me that they don't get it.

Its the basic principle that we object to.....they can tweak it, change the UI, change timers, paint it pretty colours......it doesn't really matter because the basic principle will still exist. They are trying to remove random element of the player in combat and replace it with a system driven random number generator.

I like to PvP not PvE with a hint of Player. I want to control my character myself and choose how I play it.

They need to stop trying to polish the turd.

 

Yeah its reasonable that you want feedback when you are at sertain stage of development and not in constant change. Its futile to have comments on thing that doesent yet exist, altought that it HINTS how it might work.

Yeah as it was stated that you can do similiar item in game. Ofcourse if that items brakes really often it kinda pushes player to buy the item as "must have" if you want to really fish and for me thats bit of red cloth. But for "saves me some time and is convenient" its all good.

 

Worries me that they only talk about "enhancing" the design.............

Does this mean they are not prepared to go back to the drawing board? I think the Devs need to clarify this.

 

That's actually a really really bad example because human influence doesn't change the quality of what you craft in UO at that level. Also you have to think about why many people craft items in UO ultimately from a certain hammer......and no it's not because of the pretty colours!
It's because certain elements have a better effect on certain creatures. Most pvpers will either craft with elements split or concentrate on fire or poison because that it's likely to be the best areas to hit others due to spells such as corpse skin......not all pvps have corpse skin proof armer.

When we talk about PvP we are actually talking about people.

A lot of the randomness in PvP comes from the other human "controlling" their character.......PvM is about random number generators and AI. The only real system driven randomness in PvP should be within the formulas over damage, defence etc etc. It certainly shouldn't be forcing the human player down to road of a random act because they have no other option.

I'm at the edge of a cliff and I jumped off and died......I didn't want to do it......the card made me............. It was the only one I had left.

 

"Its the basic principle that we object to" - I would go as far as change "we" to "some of us". Concerning random element, if your sword does 10-15 damage, thats random element right there. As far as i can tell about the pre-alpha skeleton combat system is that manouvering is not part of it (I would love it to be and more so would love that weapon choice mattered - spear = reach and so on) thus there can not be "random element of the player" at all - because manouvering in melee doesent effect anything as of now.

Following this line of tought I presume you would prefer to have your way and stand still & whack amole with exact skill you want to. Thats fine but really boring - for me. But if we go that route I sure would need that movement in combat and reach and assosiated things put in to it - with out those it wouls be exact skill whack amole.

For this I am willing to see how they come up with it. There is allready tens of pages of tears about system that havent been even given us to test AND then give creative feedback / or vote "ney" change the whole thing. But it surely seems that the vocal minority decided long time ago for "ney" what ever they come up with - I never believed "judge before proven" mentality.

Now, can we go 10 more pages of combat system tears and PvP lamentation and pretend its creative and is achieving something? /rant not to be repeated anymore, thank you.

 

This last page is a great example of what can go wrong when crowd funding a project.

The Dev team releases information to the populace, and the populace dissects every word looking for hidden or implied meaning and then over reacts.

Guys the sky is not falling, try to stop combing through every sentence the team releases looking for doom and gloom. This is a work in progress, and the team wants our input, but they don't want every word scrutinized and thrown back at them. Sooner or later they will get tired of putting out fires and the flow of information will slow down to a trickle, and what they will share will be "sanitized" for public consumption.

Feedback is good. It’s what the team wants. State your opinion, good and/or bad, politely with some explanation if you like, but don't beat the team over the head with it. Remember it is a WIP, not every word is gospel or has meaning, and everything is subject to change.

 

Exactly, thank you.

 

When I speak of "we" I'm talking about all those with the same strong view as myself. I am quite sure you knew that already before posting.

 

I disagree. It's because they give us scraps of information and never had our weekly dev+ chats like they promised us. We all get updates with the rest of the community and they tell us nothing. We told them for a month or more about our concerns about this system, and you know what, it turns out the system is exactly what everybody was concerned about.

Maybe you didn't pay attention to those threads because it wasn't important to you at the time, but for those it was important to we are AMAZED that the system is exactly what we asked for them not to develop. It is mindboggling that the system was exactly what the threads have been arguing against. So yes these are valid arguments, and also I don't like this comment because it makes the assumption that the community is too dull to understand. When it was the community who asked for it not to be this way in the first place, and their prototype is exactly what we've been saying we did not want them to develop.

 

Go back and read those threads about the combat system, and you will see dark prophesies fulfilled.