A bit more criticism - non-consensual cannibalism (part II)

First of all.. that is a major pet peeve. It's a cop out to not have to come up with a reason. Even magic follows rules. In any fantasy setting, including this one.. there are things magic can and can't do. So in fact, yes it should be able to make sense.

Secondly, we're talking potions.. not spells.

Thirdly..

You're making that up and it has no foundation in known SotA lore..

Forth..

YOU are the one bringing morals into it.. and the very argument is hypocritical as you are now doing the same as you accuse.

What reason do you have to care about the issue? Why do you WANT corpse wax in healing potions? If you don't care.. then you have no reason to care if it's changed and none of this shouldn't mean a darn thing to you.

 

Respectfully disagree. Several modern belief systems would have no such cognitive dissonance with it, albeit ones we don't generally run into in the anglophonic world. And that's not even starting to poke about in history. . .

 

Responding to @Bowen Bloodgood 's post up there....

1) *shrug* Give us a working magic system to poke at and prod at and try things with, hopefully without nasty side effects we've not seen in the UO worldcycle to date, and we might be able to come up with such a thing as a full rational explanation. We don't have that option in game. In addition. the lore here in SOTA even explicitly states that magic changes - the spells of the past no longer work in the here and now. Why? I don't know - I enjoyed your magical history posts walking through much of the hints and clues and look forward to more.

Why do spells have random effects? Maybe the caster doesn't fully realize how to best optimize their spellcasting? Maybe the sharded moon is in an unfavorable alignment at that instant? Some other realm just tapped out or maxed out the essence of magic in that space/time? (I'm looking for lore answers here, not game mechanics. Unless your position is that game mechanics ARE the explanation? Wasn't what I thought you were looking for)

2) So potions aren't magical? Interesting. Got a reference that states that in lore? Or is it an assumption? *curious look*

3) Darn right I made it up. Rather proud of it, off the cuff like that. *wry grin* So? Does EVERY event in the game have to be lore-compatible?

4) I took it from your apparent willingness to put your opinion that it was ickywrong to use corpse wax to heal, as well as misreading some of Hermetic's response above,

- added emphasis mine

I am sorry I went there - my apologies.

Barring that, I still believe that having more options, more approaches to generating the much-bemoaned healing potion and other corpse-wax-bearing recipes is IMO a way forward that doesn't water down the rest of the feel of the place that seems like it should make both sides happier.

I *like* that magic bubbly bits like healing pots are made of icky bits and slimy thingummies, and that via the magic of alchemy they turn beneficial. *shrug* "Eye of newt" and all that, for instance.

 

No worries..

2: Not what I said. Potions.. are not spells..

3. And a valiant effort it was.. don't misunderstand.. but consistency lends to believability.. which enhances the experience for those are care about such things. It makes the world seem more real.

4: But you are quoting someone else with their own interpretation. My argument was in regards to roleplay and what I would expect a persons natural reaction to be to the knowledge of what's in the potion.

It is also an unnecessary departure from Richard's usual design regarding potions. It's an issue related to being a 'spiritual successor' to Ultima.. which used garlic and ginseng for healing and cures. The ingredients for better understood potions always made some kind of sense for the world they were in. You wanted a potion that explodes.. you used sulfurous ash..

I could also argue that corpse wax flies in the face of discovery in crafting. Most wouldn't expect corpse wax to be involved in healing and cures. You would think maybe poison.. (and not it's currently in the poison recipe as well) or some component related to death.. or death magic. That would make sense even without needing to explain it. As much as "it's magic" annoys me personally.. it's close enough when players can connect the dots on their from natural associations which don't need explaining.

So the game design argument would follow that logic.. use ingredients players would naturally associate with the outcome. Especially if you want them to be able to discover recipes through trial and error.

The only moral argument to be considered is understanding how people will react either logically or illogically so as to best come up with what seems most reasonable by weighing how you expect people to react to what something actually brings to the game and what.. if anything is missed. No other consideration need be necessary for something like this.

In this case.. nothing would be missed, the recipe would make more sense and you wouldn't have someone going EEEWWWW over something that's supposed to be good for you.

 

All I am seeing here is that you want to change things in game for no other reason than so you can RP your particular character trait more conveniently.

Who are you to say what should or should not be and ingredient in a fictional recipe?

What if I am serious about RP'ing that my character is allergic to garlic? Does the fact that my choice makes me unable to use certain common consumables mean that I should demand those recipes be changed to accomodate me? Of course not.

If you find the ingredients 'icky' and dont want your character to consume them, then don't use them. If that makes aspects of the game inconvenient for you, too bad, thats your choice.

If you don't like it then RP a character who understands and accepts that alchemical recipes have some wierd but necessary ingredients.

 

I am not forcing my avatar's ideals/morals on to you or anybody.
Read my post again. ( emphasis added ):
"( of course ANYONE can play however THEY like ) ...

There needs to be more options to allow PEOPLE
to be true to the virtues/ideals which THEIR avatars hold ..."

Hopefully. As intended and designed by the devs in the right places.
I, for one, am not asking that you should care one way or the other and can play each situation however YOU wish.

 

Per @Bowen Bloodgood up there, #2) So potions are not spells, but are magical. So we already have, if I understand you there, TWO discrete magical systems baked into the world. . . . Why is that sensible, versus having a single underlying magic system?

re #3) Consistency is believability - In some contexts, agreed

Yep, my bad - I misinterpreted/misread - my apologies to you as well.

Note, still don't agree with you - but I was outta line detonating like that.

 

Then you're not paying attention.

If you're against making a change then make an argument as to why you want it to remain the same. If you don't care then why argue against it in the first place?

 

Oh god, I think i agree with Bowen on the issue of potions here.

(Hemlock checks his meds haven't expired)

 

No worries. Thanks for the feedback; letting me think about different aspects of this.

My main suggestion/wish is not that things should be this-or-that 'way' but rather that there would ideally be many 'ways', to fit with the many and varied play-styles people choose to adopt.

 

I wouldn't say they're completely separate.. rather they are based on the same basic principles but take different forms. If we look at it that way then healing potions should use the same components as healing spells.. The only life magic spells the use corpse wax are banish undead and resurrection.. both of which target something already dead (or undead as the case may be). I personally find resurrection a stretch but we're talking simple heals and cures here. Healing burst.. garlic, ash and pearl.. I could explain somewhat based on Ultima. The spell gets the healing property from garlic, it's range from pearl and extra power from ash. As in Ultima magic, it is the reagents that provide the properties of the spell and allow it to take shape.

Healing Grace also uses garlic.. and no corpse wax.. Purity burst.. which also cures.. also doesn't use corpse wax.. though if it were following the Ultima formula it should use ginseng which for some reason is notably absent in SotA..

But it falls back a bit to what I was saying earlier about being able to draw a natural association.. corpse wax in the healing magics is only used in spells dealing with the dead. It's easy for that to make sense.

Death magic is similar. Corpse wax is used in death ray.. summon skeletons.. and summon liche.. It isn't used in Death Shield which converts damage to health.. and Death Field is more of a poison using nightshade which again is consistent in natural association..

 

What about food, you must never eat any of that either?How can anyone attest to the purity of the planting beds and what could have died and decayed in that soil?
Or are you OK eating something that might have been grown in any human remains as long as you don't know about it? So even from a RP sense, " not a single character of mine will knowingly" so if you are OK as long as you don't know, sorry but this makes no sense to me.

 

What makes no sense to me is using unlikely hypotheticals to justify which is known fact.

Do you have a reason to want to keep the current potion recipes in question the way they are or not?

 

Why are people assuming that the corpse wax is used as an ingredient...and not as a fuel or a catalyst? Fortunately, I am a Role-Player and have no problem visualizing the squeezing out of the life forces I need out of the corpse wax to imbue my <corpse wax free> potion.

 

Soylent Green... - i am a Daoist btw... - Bowens asking is entitled from a roleplayers view - i just gave up on things like this for years and just "ignore" some or most gamemechanics to my roleplay as it doesn't fit

 

Let's keep the moral and good or bad taste (phun intended) of this topic aside.
From an alchemy and necromancer point of view it makes some sense.
But the most I agree with @LiquidSky in this case. I assume the corps wachs is used as fuel for a flame.
To my knowledge this stuff burns like hell.

 

Perhaps you should read through the things people here are saying. There are plenty of plausible explanations given as to why it could easily make sense as an ingredient.

The only reason to change it is based on your personal view that it shouldnt be an ingredient, because you want to RP your character a certain way but still want to have the conveniences of certain consumables.

I already gave an example of why it shouldn't be changed. My character is allergic to garlic and so can't use many common consumables such as healing potions. I don't see any reason why garlic is used as an ingredient in this potion and I want the recipe changed so that I can continue to RP my character this way and still be able to use them!

It would be just as ridiculous to change recipes based on this RP allergy as it would be to change it based on your RP 'ickyness' feeling.

Sorry, but in a made up world, a made up recipe for a made up item can include whatever ingredients the devs want, and shouldn't be changed just to cater to someones choice of roleplaying trait.

 

I wish I hadn't read the definition of corpse wax -

I hypothesize that the use of corpse wax in potions is actually conducive to RP. It gives the opportunity to make hard decisions: if conforming to one's principles has no consequences (in this case the decision on whether or not to use a health potion), then the commitment becomes less meaningful.

 

Good thing that i am not interested in RP at all.

Do whatever you guys want

 

This thread is WoW... just because people arguing against him are soooo vexatious, I'm siding with Bowen.

Kidding, I actually agree with bowen 100%... but reading the thread was painful and damn annoying.