A bit more criticism - non-consensual cannibalism (part II)

In part because I don't know where it's going.. and part because I quite honestly think it makes absolutely NO sense at all..

What am I talking about? Corpse wax... yes.. corpse wax.. specifically in beneficial potions, healing potions.. and cure plague I think it is.. both use a byproduct of human remains.

Now the devs have gone to great lengths to remain somewhat faithful to being a 'spiritual successor' to Ultima.. and a lot of that has can be seen in many aspects of the game.. and in Ultima.. healing and cure potions use ingredients like garlic and ginseng..

Indeed, early crafting recipes didn't include corpse wax.. so why do they now? Basically, to use one of these potions is to engage in a form of cannibalism.

Now I know some people are probably thinking.. oh come on you're over reacting it's just a game why even care? To those of you who don't care.... why care if someone else does?

From an RP perspective.. this is cannibalism. And an RPer who doesn't want to engage in it (I guarantee you none of my characters are cannibals) now can't use the most common potion there is.. healing. (Not that healing potions have been effective but that's another issue to be addressed another time).

And since when does corpse wax have beneficial healing properties in the first place?

As an RPer.. I care about my RP.. not a single character of mine will knowingly produce, carry, buy, sell, trade, display or use beneficial potions that require human remains or the byproduct of such.

What ever possessed Portalarium to do this in the first place? ehem.. Richard??? *glare*

 

So that's your choice to RP them that way... keep on with that if that's what you like, or if you get tired of RP'ing that character trait then you can join the rest of us who think this is a complete non issue

 

If you don't care so much then there's no reason not to change it is there?

 

Well, I somewhat agree, but does anyone actually use healing potions when there is Healing Touch or plague potion when there is Purify (not to mention that the plague appears to be very mild case of flu and fresh air on the map cures any avatar)?

 

There are still some players whom, for whatever reason.. have at least one character who does not use magic, or even stranger uses magic but not healing magic.

As for the effectiveness of the potion, that's another subject entirely which I assume Portalarium will want to address at some point. As they will also want to address the practically of potions in general and, I should hope would include situations where they're preferable to magic (such as reserving focus).

 

I used to think that corpse wax was a wax used to preserve the dead.. like part of the embalming proccess. What it actually is.... WAY more dusgusting. Bleh.

 

Yummy

 

"Adipocere (/ˈædᵻpəˌsɪər, -poʊ-/[1][2]), also known as corpse, grave or mortuary wax, is a wax-like organic substance formed by the anaerobic bacterial hydrolysis of fat in tissue, such as body fat in corpses. In its formation, putrefaction is replaced by a permanent firm cast of fatty tissues, internal organs, and the face."

 

Bubonic wonders what consensual cannibalism would be like

 

Very interesting.

 

While it's really not the point here I did outline a way to opt in cannibalism by becoming harvestable. That is, by using a skinning knife on another player who is flagged as harvestable.. or in the absence of such a player on an NPC.. you flag yourself as being harvestable for body parts for trophies. Cannibalism could be a natural extension to that idea. Thus, those who didn't want to participate wouldn't be forced to opt out of PvP (or anything else).. and those willing could easily opt in.

But using corpse wax in healing potions.. something which ALL players would normally use without thinking twice (assuming they were effective and balanced etc).. that's like a cannibal offering you "beef pot pie" when it's really LB Brain pie.

 

It was just a joke

 

You, Sir, could use some more Daoist friends in your life ;-)

All joke aside, I side with you. Its certainly an awkward cognitive dissonance for your roleplayed character to have to endure. I could see it as an ingredient in, lets say, crafting a wand, or modifying the attributes of a food-buff (if you wanna pull a Hannibal Lecter on your friends). Im sure it was just randomly assigned / not intentionally thought out when they were coming up with recipes for crafting ingredients, and that theyd be open minded to refining the recipe to jsut use ingredients that are common to herbalism/alchemy as having healing properties (e.g., garlic and ginseng). Corpse Wax seems as goofy as Nightshade (though, technically, I could see Nightshade used in a Cure potion, just not a Heal potion).

So yah, I hope they refine recipes like this, and corpse wax shouldnt be an ingredient to things with everyday use, just things that creepy necro weirdos would play with.

There were cannibals woven into the story and somewhat the gameplay of Age of Conan (as cannibals are not an uncommon foe in the Robert E Howard series). No one really cared. Then again, you couldnt like cook food or stuff like that in AoC either (was just part of certain class' epic quest).

 

Richard has often said that he would like to see people play their avatars as themselves so to speak... sharing the same values etc.
( of course anyone can play however they like )

I too am interested in the RP angle of this game and disappointed in some of the, seemingly non-Ultima-like, decisions they have
made in its development so far... not just with materials but the actions one is forced to take in order to complete some of the
various quests.

For example see also this thread.

Some people are more interested in the RP aspect than in combat or what-have-you. There needs to be more options to allow people
to be true to the virtues/ideals which their avatars hold; even if those ideals are the opposite of their real life personas. It's a question of the
integrity of ones character, and immersion in an alternate reality which makes it more alive and fun and less of a meaningless grind.

 

I should also say that I like the ethical dilemma aspect that was envisioned for some of the quests. To make such decisions more of a soul-searching struggle, as seemed to be intended, I think it should be allowed that one can maintain their avatars integrity as explained above by Bowen and in my attempt to explain as well. Otherwise such decisions will likely be just detached meaningless "what-ever"s.

 

IMO, if you care, don't use it. Equal degrees of reason to change and not to change it - in other words, no functional reason, IMO.

If your character is upset by that, PLAY IT. I greatly appreciate the depths of your choice of roleplaying, and/or RL convictions you're glossing over in these posts. Not my business, either way, just a feeling.

 

The point, or one of them, is that it doesn't make sense for corpse wax to be a part of a health potion.
I don't really think the decision to use a healing potion or not(because it uses corpse wax) was supposed
to be one of those ethical dilemmas. Do you? Maybe it is, but I would suggest an illogical one if so.

It seems to be an example of hindering someones play style for no reason... like the auto-target issue that
caused one to kill non-hostiles, which I am thankful they fixed.

 

The argument I'll offer you in return is real simple. IT IS MAGIC. It doesn't HAVE to make sense.

Furthermore, here's one FOR why using corpse wax in healing magics for those that the material is derived from (IE, corpse wax from humans for avatars, currently) is needed:

Corpse wax persists the memory (or essence, anima, spirit, soul or other preferred term) of bodies, how they work, how they don't. It is therefore a key focus in manipulating bodies, be the intent be heal or weal.

*shrug* The opposite argument, the one you seem to be implicitly making in the above post, is that corpse wax is icky, immoral, disease-ridden and bad, and thus shouldn't be used. By my first argument, either the second, third, both 2nd & 3rd, and/or something else neither of us have touched on might be the truth! IT'S MAGICAL - does not HAVE to make sense!

Could there be alternate recipes for healing potions, ones which are 'wholesome' by your apparent preferences and ones 'profane', sure. If you want an alternate recipe or set of 'wholesome'/'halal'/'kosher'/'blessed'/whatever label you prefer to use, I'll back your position, then look for the cheapest option assuming they ever unbork healing potions & other affected recipes into something useful. If you want to change the world for your own niceties, I'm against it.



OK, I'm kinda peeved - been less than ideal the last couple weeks on this end of the internet - and thus I'll take a step further.

HOW DARE YOU PRIORITIZE YOUR MORALS OVER MY MINE?!?

You - YOU! - have a moral, ethical dilemma. *shrug* Sorry, life sucks, and to quote the great Dennis Leary, get a helmet. I run into them sadly quite often, and do my best to get thru them with what I consider my soul intact. Yes, this can apply online, and in ways FAR more direct and painful than if the ingredients in the mystic potion I sip are good. This additional argument I'm making is a case in point. Do I blandly accept your assumed moral superiority, laugh quietly to myself, and go on gaming the way I want, or do I call you on your attitude? Tonight, I'm in the right mood to call your arrogance out into the light and poke at it like the worm it is.

If you decide your righteousness, your moral correctness, your interpretation of some form of holy writ in or out of game provides you the unbeatable position, the one there's no countering, no arguing against you'll ever accept, then you and I are going to butt heads a LOT. *sour grin*



*sigh*

That being said, here's another fun option - ask the devs for 'healthy' (by whatever definition you choose to use) vs 'unhealthy' corpse wax. The stuff off the undead - 'unhealthy', probably, but maybe you can 'farm' animal corpses and generate 'healthy' corpse wax from wolves, bears, cows, etc instead of using them on butcher blocks for meat.

In short - Still against changing everything. Gave you a couple other alternatives. You decide what y'all want to push for. *shrug*

 

If people are upset over a feature.. and no one else cares.. you have reason to change and no reason not to. Particularly when there was no need to put that particular feature in in the first place.

The same can be said for using corpse wax for a healing potion. The original recipe didn't have it. It makes no sense to use it.. if they wanted to simply make recipes more complex and needed an ingredient they could've used something else that made sense.. . There was no reason to use corpse wax.. and plenty of reason not to. It is extremely unlikely for example.. that a civilized society with an understanding of how to create a healing potion.. would resort to cannibalistic measures to make such a thing.. particularly when other options are available.

If the core idea behind the RP players are intended to engage in.. is to play yourself. How many of us in the real world would knowingly consume anything with corpse wax in it? Never mind any moral or ethical dilemma people may associate with it.. but who would actually do it? I'd be willing to bet you'd start caring in a hurry and very few people would actually go near the stuff.

 

ROFL! Oh, my, that's hilarious. Please, name for me ONE "civilized society with an understanding of how to create a healing potion.. would resort to cannibalistic measures to make such a thing.. particularly when other options are available"

Oh, that's right - we're arguing about MAGIC leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

*head shake* In point of fact, the majority of societies (and I won't touch 'civilized' the way you casually toss it off there with a ten foot chunk of C4!) who THOUGHT they knew how to create healing potions use human-derived components. I am not an expert in the field, but fairly widely read, and I cannot think of one off hand which did NOT have at least ONE recipe involving human-derived components. Some had recipes that didn't - willow bark tea, for instance. But I flat out can't think of one which didn't offhand.

For that matter - in the Real World with the magic of technology, how about the joyous nightmare of the ethical/moral hazards around stem cells?

*shrug*