A bit more criticism - non-consensual cannibalism (part II)

Look guys.. this is simple.

If we're only talking preferences.. can anyone in here honestly, genuinely say they prefer corpse wax as a healing ingredient over anything else? Does it really make a difference to you that it's corpse wax instead of say.. black pearl?.. or serpent scales?

Can you honestly, genuinely say yes you care? Or are you just in here to make a stink and tell me it doesn't matter so I should think differently?

Do you really have a reason.. based either on established lore.. on game design.. or game mechanics.. to use corpse wax over something else?

 

*raises hand*

"Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg, and howlet's wing,--
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble."
Macbeth (IV, i, 14-15)

IMO, adds to the verisimilitude or consistency of magic being weird, strange, unexpected and yet useful.

 

When not a single person has given a reason why they even care.. including you so far.. then why should value what amounts to "think of it a different way" ?

 

Unfortunately, SotA was not designed by Shakespeare.

 

Also not equal. Platelet's function is to stop bleeding.. not close wounds.. and even assuming they survived digestion.. there's such a thing as having too much.. so unless you're suffering from thrombocytopenia, adding a lot more probably isn't a good idea.

 

Ayep, and the whole problem of getting useful protein structures like platelets from the digestive into the circulatory systems isn't quite a given either.

Yay for the existence in game of magic which makes such things possible!

 

Really a stretch. But to tease out the issue.... No I would not drink blood to heal a cut, but would inject same to save my life. It's a difficult issue and I am just trying to point out that in the RP world an avowed non cannibal can extend the argument to include blood transfusion, skin grafts, kidney transplants as being cannibalism. Have you ever heard of HELA cells?

 

Um.. no they can't make that argument. Cannibalism by definition requires consumption. Every example you just cited deals with live tissue that isn't consumed.

And I'm still waiting for someone to answer my question as to why they even care or otherwise prefer corpse wax over something else.. 4 pages and not one opposed has yet to give an actual reason why.. even after pointing that out.. still no answer.. Just arguments for thinking differently..

 

A theory :
I think people 'might' be opposed to your idea based on none of those things but 'perhaps' because they think you are trying to make the game more 'politically correct'.
"A slippery slope... if they give in and change this what next? Get rid of combat altogether and instead have my little ponies playing checkers with the care bears???"
I am sure no one will say that is what they are afraid of but maybe in the back of their mind... a perhaps valid concern given the ridiculous lengths some 'social justice
warriors' go to these days... I am surprised SOTA hasn't been attacked by some PC groups because of cultural appropriation or racism or the like.
"Look at the way those poor Elves are depicted!"

I am sure that is not what you are asking for... if it was then I would be on their side.

 

Considering how I, probably the most vocal person on the forum against cannibalism am the one person who came up with a way it could be done in a manner that makes even the cannibals happy (if their response in previous discussions is any indication).. I don't think anyone has anything to worry about.

On the cannibalism front itself the issue is the opt out nature of the problem. Healing potions are supposed to be a primary mechanism for non-spell based healing for an entire society.

Putting cannibalism aside.. how corpse wax is used should be consistent between spells and potions. That alone should be reason enough.

What I think.. and please anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong.. is people think I'm just being nitpicky and overly sensitive about what they feel should be a non-issue. For someone who's just playing the game and a non-RP.. corpse wax is just "component B" and doesn't really mean anything. Cause after all.. we in the real world aren't actually drinking the stuff. If we made changes over every little thing where does it end? But so far nobody's even made THAT argument. *shrug* (Edit: At least not directly that I recall)

 

I'm sure RG, with his predilections for putting child murder scenes in every game since U4, is laughing his ass off at this thread.

As for why I think it should stay... #1, magic is completely different now. RG talked about this extensively at SotaCon. The Obsidians were the first to figure out new magic, and they weren't the most life affirming folks. So totally on board with them going to the necromancy side.

#2, it's alchemy, not spellcraft. It SHOULD be different. If you don't want human reagents, use spells.

 

If anything I'm horrified by Gamer Gate propaganda, personally. NOT going to go there, other than to state you're wrong, at least in my case.

 

Ah but it's NOT completely different.. the use of reagents and their respective properties shows us that. It's different in terms of game mechanics.. it's not so different where reagents are concerned. Far as reagents are concerned.. a couple of dropped out and a couple new ones are in.. but their usage and basic properties are or less the same.

Also.. because the obsidians figured it out does not mean they defined the nature of magic themselves.. they didn't create it.. they only discovered it. It's like saying the nature of gravity would be different if someone else figured out how it worked. So that doesn't explain how an ingredient associated with death everywhere else (including alchemy as it's used in poison right now as well).. is suddenly part of a healing potion.

 

You've been given plenty of reasons that you are ignoring because you want to be right.

Here's another, yes it should be corpse wax because that's the closest thing we have right now to an 'essence' or link of some sort to a body. I like that something as miraculous as a drink that will completely restore your health and fix your wounds requires this catalyst and connection to the body.

I prefer it stays as is, I think it fits perfectly fine with the current lore, magical systems, and recipes in place, an opinion which is just as legitimate and valid as your complaint about it not fitting.

 

No I've been given plenty of other ways to think about it. "Think of it as a catalyst or fuel" is not a reason.. "because it's magic" is not a reason..

If it fit perfectly then corpse wax would be a reagent for healing burst.. and purify.. it's not. There is no lore in SotA OR Ultima that describes corpse wax being used for healing.. but it IS used in magic dealing with death. That isn't my opinion.. that's simply fact.

The addition of corpse wax into the healing potion recipe is very recent.. it occurred only a few releases ago. Which should tell folks it was never originally planned as a healing component in the first place.. this change to the healing potion was made probably because they decided all potions needed 2 ingredients with little (or no) other rhyme or reason.

 

Sorry, you are just wrong. It fits perfectly within the systems in place in SotA and whatever was in UO doesnt matter as that was a seperate game.

Look at Death Ray, yes it uses corpse wax as well as black pearl and nightshade. It also HEALS YOU. So the black pearl and the nightshade are the damaging part of the spell and the corpse wax provides that connection to the body that HEALS you in return.

Makes perfect sense within the system.

So yes, it is used in the death magic line but of course you leave out the important healing aspect of it to further your point here.

 

@Bowen Bloodgood Looking at the other magic spells that include corpse wax you have the following:

Teleport
Summon Will-O-Wisp, Water Elemental, Ice Elemental, Earth Elemental, Pheonix, Fire Elemental, Skeleton, Lich
Resurrection

It is clearly inked to the power of restoration or formation of life. It makes perfect sense to have it in a potion that restores part of the body.

Take Teleport for example, the corpse wax is not involved in the deconstruction of your self to move through space, because the spell previous to that, Shadow Form involves only the hiding shadow part and does not involve corpse wax, while Teleport takes it a step further and uses the corpse wax to reconstruct you at your new location.

In fact, if you look at it in that light, it makes much less sense that its NOT included in the other healing magics.

The 2 spells in the life tree, healing burst, healing grace are quite obviously the odd thing out in this system and do not match up with the rest of the magic or with the potions.

I vote that we expand the ingredients for the healing magic spells in the life tree to include corpse wax to fit better with the lore and magic systems in place in this game.

 

I didn't leave it out.. I just didn't see it. And as death ray does damage you can't say with absolute certainty the corpse wax is the healing component.

No.. summoning is neither restoration OR formation of life.. and in resurrection the target happens to be a dead corpse. As I pointed out yesterday, the only spells it's used in in the life tree involve dead targets.

This hypothesis is nothing more than that. There is no basis on which to say you are deconstructed and reconstructed.. this isn't Star Trek, and if that were the case you have no basis on which to say corpse wax involves only the reconstruction part. You're completely pulling that one out of a hat. Your connection to Shadow Form also makes zero sense.. as Teleport is not an extension of the previous spell even in concept. There is no logic in making that connection.

Again.. this is NO LORE regarding corpse wax and healing. It is impossible to fit better with lore that does not exist.

 

So your hypothesis with no evidence that it doesn't fit into the lore and magic systems in place is valid, but my hypothesis and explanation of how it fits perfectly within the systems is not valid?

This is exactly why this complaint and 4 pages of you dismissing everyone's replies is ridiculous.

 

You're assuming lore that doesn't exist and ignoring the lore that does.. just as you are dismissing everything I've said while claiming I'm the one being dismissive.

I have the game's history and Richard's gaming history.. as well as existing mechanics./design to back me up without having to make up far flung theories or thin connections to suit me argument. YOU.. are the first one to actually give any real effort to challenge that.. kudos.. until now everyone has been "well think of it this way" or "well if makes sense if you think of it that way" and avoiding why they're bothering to make an argument in the first place. To be honest, I'm still not convinced you even truly care about whether it's corpse wax or not. As you didn't get into it until after I kept pressing the issue..