Any news on phasing?

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by Lord_Darkmoon, Oct 5, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Then we are agree that text is important part of all the system, and needs improvements, like everything else :)
     
    Sir Cabirus and Vyrin like this.
  2. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,680
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I agree with this. The presentation of the story in SotA doesn't quite work. It isn't interesting, it doesn't create a good atmosphere and it is just tedious reading this text - which often is way too much.

    Richard once said that he wanted the NPCs to show animations in order to support the narrative. But obviously it didn't work. Having them just use those standard emotes which most of the time don't even fit is creating a story that is unintentionally funny.
    So what we got right now is a "story-driven RPG" with a story that isn't told in an exciting way. It doesn't grab me, it doesn't immerse me, it doesn't excite it, it doesn't make we want to explore more of it. It feels like a chore. It doesn't provoke any emotions.
    And for this "story-driven game" to have a working and exciting story this has to change. Will it change? I doubt it, unfortunately :(
     
    Gix, Sir Cabirus and Vyrin like this.
  3. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    7,620
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    No one is arguing something different.

    No, not what I said at all. I've never argued against perspective, pacing, UI. All those things are important. My point is use everything you have at your disposal in the best way possible. I'm just not as purist in wanting to limit text to dialogue only.

    No, but we're talking about writing which is done both in books and games. If you won't accept that "show vs tell" has a different meaning in writing, even though I pasted a link of a simple explanation above, that's ok. But if you don't understand the difference, it's not fair to just say I'm trying to make it complex. We both agree writing is important and so if you really want good writing, you would hopefully be interested in what "show vs tell" means in writing.

    Agreed. All story should work well with game-play. Problem is there is some latitude in opinion on what "works well". Even among those who are trained in cinema and theater - or do they all have the same opinion?

    This is why I've been asking everyone to test the main storyline in SotA so the devs get feedback on all the inconsistencies and problems. No one is arguing that games should get a pass on bad storytelling no matter how small or large their budget is.

    Now who's trying to make a complex point? Exactly to your point then, don't just throw out a comparison as if the meaning is self-evident. And I did not say "apples-to-oranges" for precisely that reason, argue fairly please. If you throw out a comparison, you have to defend why it applies. Your attempt uses the common generalized negative view of people: "gamers like things they shouldn't because [insert insulting reason]." That's a typical elitist view I don't ascribe to. You hear that a lot in SotA. Oh we don't have X - we're so much better than the rest of the gaming community. All elements are not automatically good or bad, it's how they're used that matters - and I think you agree.

    The dialogue is key, of course. But even in movies and theater, there are times when they thoughtfully use narration and description. That's all I'm arguing - it can be well done. Think of this too: in the beginning we had text-based RPGs. People enjoyed those, and even today you could make a case for why they would be enjoyable. The visuals in computer games have pros and cons vs movies and theater like you said. Being thoughtful about the medium, it's not as easy to show characters doing stuff in games yet. Text descriptions/explanation are not automatically bad. They can be done well and thoughtfully considering the opportunities and limitations in the game itself. To your point, text-based adventures would have never existed. Yes, the capabilities for the visuals are getting better all the time. I really don't get why it's so terrible that well-done (please note that qualifier) text with visuals is so automatically horrible. Is your argument that it's horrible because it's horrible in movies/theater?

    Well, yes, yes you are. I would never say anything works better because it's cheaper, nor would I ever say things are automatically bad. Don't have any specific data either on how gamers respond to flavor text - just that it doesn't seem to distract from enjoyment of a game as much as you seem to think it would.

    See when you say,

    I completely agree. But here you say flavor text can be utilitized, so I'll be content that you agree - even if you don't understand my perspective.
     
  4. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I never claimed that text wasn't important... but that the text in dialogue (re-written or not) should remain as dialogue.

    When it comes to the idea of "showing, not telling", yes; it's what separates a sloppy director from a great one. Science is applied to art just as much as anything else. How you execute that motto is where the art comes in.

    Think about it this way:
    Are you showing the action? Yes/No. How well are you doing it? That part is subjective.

    That highlights another problem this game has. I personally can't test the main storyline because the game decided that I wasn't strong enough to deal with it. So until that's fixed (and considering that a lot of folks are holding off to play a more complete story when the game is finished), it's safe to say that Portalarium has a very little sample size for feedback.

    Only a few hours ago did I decide to try out the "Courage Club"... and now my character is effectively screwed with permanent repercussions due to omissions in the writing and scripting.

    Flavour text isn't inherently bad; putting it in the dialogue is where we're entering the "how it's used" territory.

    My argument is that it's horrible due to how particular game developers decided to present their games. Not all games present text the same way. In the beginning, games were being played differently; they were turn-based, they were top-down, the UI made you focus on the text and the text itself was presented as if you were reading the script of a stage-play.

    SotA's in real-time all the time, with a low almost-first-person perspective view (even more so if you activate "Conversation Close-Ups" in the options), the UI makes you focus on the visuals of the game, not the text... even during dialogue, the text is taking a really small portion of the screen because it's been designed that the "star" of the presentation is not the text but the visuals. The text is written not like a script but as actual spoken dialogue.

    Like you said, it's about being thoughtful about the medium and how you're wielding it.

    I'll reiterate, the solution to the problem isn't strictly writing, I'd even go as far as to say that focusing on the writing won't do you much good (except for how NPCs say their lines of dialogue)... because SotA isn't built to support that kind of presentation.

    Flavour text can be utilized but notice that my main points are:
    • It can't be in dialogue.
    • It's not so much the writing that needs to be changed by the way the game presents that writing.
     
  5. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male

    DOS2 proved you can use text for more than just dialogues between two or more characters, and succesfully done. That's why some of us think they should use more of the resources they already have. Basically make a better use of what you have. Trying to make something like W3 is not possible now (no need to say why).
     
    Numa, Sir Cabirus and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  6. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    And I'm saying that DoS and DoS2 are doing things differently so that the text can work.

    Take @Lord_Darkmoon 's screenshot, for example:

    [​IMG]
    Notice how there's an actual narrator with no trace of dialogue?

    I would personally avoid zooming in on characters during narration like that, because you're guiding your players to specifically look at... stuff that isn't moving. I'd argue that Final Fantasy, a franchise that I despise with a passion, does it better.

    The centre piece is the text, so why not draw attention to it like:
    [​IMG]

    In a lot of Japanese RPGs, they do this:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    MMOs do it too:
    [​IMG]

    Here's another example (DoS1):
    [​IMG]

    (PoE)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Still no dialogue.

    (BG)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    No flavour text.

    (GW2)
    [​IMG]
    No flavour text.

    (D&D:O)
    [​IMG]
    No dialogue.
     
    majoria70 and Mykll like this.
  7. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Opinion : due to the mechanics of story delivery, and general lack of decisions / interactivity by players, it would be better delivered via pop up bubbles that you click to dismiss.

    Then they could at least write dialog for the player, so it's not just "help," "name," etc.

    Think single player Final Fantasy. We have the same amount of interactivity, might as well embrace it and string the dialog together in a sensible, easy to read format.

    Clicking or typing keywords just to pretend we gave interaction is a serious barrier. If the game was branching, and understood typed text, that would indicate interaction, but since it mostly isn't, deal with it and start basing the UI around that reality.
     
    Vyrin, Gix and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  8. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes. Although I won't be able to read the wall o texts there, any more than I can read Shrouds larger pieces.

    In appropriate media, books, I will happily read 1000 page books, but put 5 lines in a row on a computer screen and I'm clicking paste as I gouge my eyes out.

    Paragraphs please.
     
    Gix likes this.
  9. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Exactly

    It worked for Ultima 4 because it was simple and to the point.
     
  10. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Did you played DOS2? from your comments seems like you just taking one screenshot as exampl, but DOS2 has tons of examples where you can see the power of a well used text (something SotA missing since first day).
     
    Sir Cabirus likes this.
  11. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Until you actually give hard examples yourself, I’m merely guessing as to what you consider “power of a well used text”

    I played enough of the original to understand the fundamental differences between it and SotA in the game-play that allowed its text to shine.
     
  12. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

    Messages:
    6,194
    Likes Received:
    12,076
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    What's a well used text?
     
    Gix likes this.
  13. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male

    From all the examples you set here, I would choose DOS2. See? all is about preferences. You think there are better options and I don't like those ones. For me, DOS2 is the best example (even better than PoE) of what you can archieve using only text.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
    Sir Cabirus likes this.
  14. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    That’s not what I’m asking.
     
  15. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Answered twice already. Any of all examples we put in this thread, all of them are missing in SotA right now, your favourites one, and the ones I like (from DOS2 from example). There are some personal preferences, but we all can see that none of them are being used in SotA right now. I really think they could make it better with actual resources. You just need to ask to anyone who completed the story, you think the dialogues are ready to launch?

    A better use of these resources is what we are waiting for. Hope you underdtand now my point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
    Sir Cabirus likes this.
  16. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    There is not a single aspect of this game that is remotely capable of matching my standards of what would be considered "ready for launch"... so, no; the dialogues are far from ready.

    No, you haven't. All you did was stating that, of all of the examples shown, that you preferred DoS2's.
    Not only was the list of example not about "picking your favourites", you didn't explain why. You talk of a concept like "well used text" and claiming that I have yet to see it without defining what it means.

    @Vladamir Begemot 's wondering the same thing.

    ... so show me.

    I haven't even shown you my favourites... All I did was show examples of popular RPGs (with the exception of the screenshots of the JRPGs, they were picked at random) that uses text in a reasonable fashion; something that we all agree that SotA is lacking. I used "popular" RPGs (Baldur's Gate, Divinity Original Sin, Pillars of Eternity, etc) because, someone in the discussion used meta-critic scores as a way to argue that DoS2's doing something right... and I even used DoS and DoS2 to explain why it's "right".

    And that person is right; DoS2 is doing something right (although not to my own personal tastes)... but here's the catch: Whatever DoS2 is doing right, it ain't the text. It's something the text is piggy-backing on: Design.

    Now, to go back on "something that we all agree that SotA is lacking"... the biggest difference with what I'm saying is that, as bad as the current text may be, I don't believe that text is SotA's issue when it comes to narrative.

    It's presentation. Be it text, video, animation, still pictures, sounds, etc... whatever they choose as a format, they need to change SotA to better present that format.

    What SotA is lacking is Design.
     
  17. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    7,620
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    No one is arguing that the design of the video/audio components is not important, or that text should be the only focus. I think you've created a fictional enemy to argue against. If you could play through SotA's story line to the end, perhaps you'd be even more sympathetic to the need to focus on the writing and the narrative it conveys. What some of us fear is that SotA may not add substantial improvements to any of the elements you mention. If that is they case, they better make sure the writing is solid. It's a relist perspective, not an ideal one.

    Back in 2014 I asked for more clarity on the vision for the design of all aspects of the game. The response was to point me to a paragraph from the Kickstarter that talked about selective multiplayer and having the best of both worlds (UO and Ultima-series). It was off to the races with agile development, emphasis on getting "stuff" done. That's why questions like phasing are still being discussed... that's why some of us only focus on the reality of the way the game seems to be heading into release, trying to argue for the quality of what's there since there might not be more.

    I'm pretty sure the phase of talking about an ideal world of design is over. Top 10 priorities don't include any of the elements you mention. I banged my head against that wall in 2014, not gonna do it at this point in the project. But we do have some things in SotA now, and a few things left open that we can provide feedback on in the hopes that it might make a difference. People can argue about whether that's worthwhile. Hammering away at idealistic dreams for SotA is probably only going to make those who do bitter at this point. Those who can't give up idealism should probably be talking about design for Episode 2, if we make it that far.
     
  18. Gix

    Gix Avatar

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,014
    Trophy Points:
    153
    @Vyrin you're talking as if you're the straight man and that I'm the idealist, here. I'll explain why I find that observation very strange:

    Let me be very clear and "real" with you: If it's not fixed, I am out.

    If they cannot do the ONE thing the game was set out to do to distinguish itself from the other games out there, Richard Garriott's name alone will not be enough to keep me playing.

    @Lord_Darkmoon and I have time and time again argued over how instancing can bring single-player narratives to a multi-player environment (me being the one of the two to champion instancing)... but nothing's happening with the tech so I understand damn well why @Lord_Darkmoon started this thread.
    Like the case with instancing, I'm pointing out things that the devs can do to fix how story is presented. Whenever or not they thought of these is irrelevent; what's relevant is that they don't seem to do anything about it.

    They keep saying that they don't have the tech or the tools for it... DarkStarr announced that they're not satisfied with it... but when's the last time you heard them say anything about progression in that department?

    I'm not the one naive enough to think that writing will fix how the story plays out (as I've explained for the last 3 pages of this thread)... even if it is "the least they could do". So, from where I'm sitting, you're the idealist.

    That ain't my problem.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
    Jens_T and Mykll like this.
  19. Numa

    Numa Avatar

    Messages:
    2,891
    Likes Received:
    5,620
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Breaker's Landing
    In my case the expectations are simple. Case in point would be the quest for Cabalist experimental journals in the Epitaph. Right now the quest is just a fetch for-XP errand with little follow through in terms of story or consequence.

    What I would like to see once I find these journals are cutscenes of the horrific experiments conducted interspersed with the coldly clinical descriptions contained in the notebooks. Or a simple animated scene of the Cabalist scientist scribbling in the journal while in the background awful noises and shadows hint at the terrible things happening in the lab.

    Then there should be a choice presented down the quest line where the player can duplicate those experiments and perhaps come up with a custom powerful pet - with severe consequences to his/her virtue and the blocking or unavailability of other quest lines that would have remained open had the player opted *not* to follow that dark path.

    Writing alone won't be able to do the job properly though it is an essential component since only a strong quest storyline can structure the adventurer's experience so that the quest flow leads to a satisfying conclusion.
     
    Vladamir Begemot, majoria70 and Vyrin like this.
  20. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    7,620
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    Again, please don't think you can invent things I didn't say. I never said that if they fix the writing, the story will play out just fine. I said it was something that could help, something I can focus on right now. I said, "hope to make a difference". That's obviously not enough for you, but that's your choice.

    Your choice to make, but I'm glad people interested in story/single player stick around. You are allowed to stick to your principles, but that's an idealist's perspective. It's not bad to be an idealist, or did you assume I was adding a value judgment to it? If you can't see that, that's just fine, I don't need to make the point. I'm idealistic about some things too.

    That's why this is strange:

    Go back to the first pages and see who was trying to keep others from shutting down LD. I will always support this. Your heat here is a little misplaced. But that's ok - everyone can be passionate, and I'm happy to see that it has elicited some great convo on subjects that aren't getting attention.


    Let me try one last attempt here. When we started talking about the story, it was precisely about the single-player/multi-player disconnect. Let's assume for a moment they had phasing and they were using it. However, all the written narrative talked about you as the capital-A avatar. Even with phasing, there would be a huge disconnect that required you to suspend disbelief about all the other capital-A avatars running around. Now I think most MMO's and maybe even most MMO players would be content with that. However, the vision that was laid out (and I quoted it) said that they were going to tell a story that would allow for all the avatars running around to make sense. That's what many of us were hoping for, and it may have been too much to bite off. Then we went down all the other rabbit holes about the amount and type of text you include, which we both agree should be a thoughtful, design-based decision, even though gamers probably have a wide range of styles in terms of what they enjoy, and designers can argue the fine points about what's good or not.

    If any of this makes you want to argue against me, let's just leave it here. I don't want to derail the good convo in this thread just because there's a disconnect in what you think I'm saying.
     
    Numa and Sir Cabirus like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.