Are health bars, outlines and floating numbers hand holding?

I still think that it goes against what it is said in this video. But as long as it is optional then so be it.

 

Indeed

I appreciate your point of view, and you mine. It is good that we can have a difference of opinion and keep smiling.

Regards,

 

Before I ask my question, please know this is not meant as trolling or anything, I really really would like to hear your thoughts.

Where to draw the line?

If health bars are hand-holding (I think my post about the need for graphical indicators which may increase the programmer workload, the workload for the graphic card or PC someone plays on, the need to zoom in more, plus a lack of info for hard group-fights against bosses regarding tactics, success (or working towards it) was too much focussed on the "physical" side, less on the actual...philosophical one?), then where to draw the line?
So is the chat log. You can read what an NPC said. That could be hand-holding, so should it be all voice-acted? Maybe even with accents and mumbling thrown in? So you have to listen to find any hints, forget about clickable or marked keywords! Maybe even make it so that NPCs are unwilling to repeat something too often.
Is whispering and guild chat handholding? Wouldn't it be more immersive if people only hear you when close to you or unless you shout? So if you wanna meet your fellow guildies somewhere in the world, you tell them while they stand next to you, then move out and hope all of them arrive at the right spot sometime soon, as they only can hear you when they are close to you, not through some chat channel.

How abotu stats? If seeing the health bar of my enemy is handholding, how about my own health, plus my stats? Wouldnt it be less-handholding if I don't see how much STR, DEX or whatever else I have, how much more I can carry.
I mentioned hunger. Wouldnt it be more immersive, even realistic and less-handholding if you got hungry or would starve unless you eat in between? When replaying the oldest Ultima-games, I always have problems adjusting to the hunger-mechanic, but it's definitely not hand-holding. Especially if you can't see a number to tell you how much energy/steps/minutes you have left, but would hit less hard or lose your aim and do less damage (which you won't easily notice because of the lack of health bars and floating numbers).

Same for the durability of items. Sure, dings and burns and holes in the armour would be more...immersive and maybe less hand-holding, but just like with graphical indicators, I wonder how well all this will run on a medium to decent PC, and how much work will be required to give you useful graphical indicators on armour or mobs to tell you they are damaged.

My point is... where to draw the line when it comes to convenience or hand-holding? If health-bars are, we could go on and find a lot of things that are hand-holdng or are unfitting. Maybe that is one reason this is debated or sometimes a tough call for developers?
I hear health bars might actually go, and when they do, it'd be nice to be switchable, so those that consider them handholding can switch them off and rely on other indicators. Those tjhat dont wanna have to zoom in to see such indicators or need to use a lower resolution or simply dont mind healthbars or actually like them could continue using them.

 

I would LOVE to see an RPG that does not show any stats. You would still get stronger over time and more dextrous but you would not see it in numbers but by being able to carry more or by being able to kill an enemy more quickly. Maybe you could jump faster, dodge better, learn more spells etc.
As for hunger, it would be an interesting mechanic if it would not be done in a way that is annoying. For example in H1Z1 you starve to death in a few hours! If you could survive in the game for days or weeks without having to eat then it would be ok to sometimes eat something in between.

My problem is that many people seem to be stuck in their comfort zones. Especially people coming from the MMORPG-genre. Let's take the holy trinity of damage dealer, healer and tank, which is something many MMO-fans obviously can't accept to be done away with. Same for health bars or floating numbers. I am sure that there are some people in the SotA community who even want to have exclamation marks above the heads of NPCs. People are always saying why remove something that is a proven concept and works? If we would always think this way then we would still have turn-based combat and 2D graphics.
If we stick to these gameplay-elements that have been done to death then the game can never evolve and can never be more than a generic MMO.

 

Thank you, some very interesting points!

One thing that did come to mind is this: You mention games evolving into more than a generic MMO, but then you refer to RPGs, which many consider the root of MMOs (its debatable how true that is, how much of an influence classic RPGs were on todays MMOs)... I think Garriott himself was very much influenced by them when he created Akalabeth and Ultima, which many see as one of the influences of todays MMOs.
So would it be an evolvement if games would head into that direction, removing things like viewable stats (stats itself of course are great and even kinda realistic, but we are talking being able to view them)? Same with the often-mentioned "!" on quest givers... those weren't around in old RPG video games or in UO, but came later.
So is going back to the roots or removing some recent developments an evolvement?

Don't get me wrong, I am just pondering here! I get your point! And we actually agree in many aspects too, because the whole "!" and "?" business.. I am glad that is not around, same as with quest trackers. As an example, I never knew for example that one of the guys in the OH tavern is Wycliffe, whom I was sent out to search for, and that he had quests until I talked to him more. It's a bit "detective work" to find the quests, and find the solutions for them, and I like that, because the whole "click on exclamation mark, follow arrow, kill this or click on that question-mark next" simply felt... I dunno, too simplified.

I guess I am drawing a line at some point when it comes to being able to see well enough how much of an impact you and your attacks have, especially when it comes to "learning boss fights" with a group, developing tactics. If I do see some graphical changes, but never know whether my group brought the boss to 75, 50, 25 or only 99 percent, I dunno how motivated I or my groupmates would be to keep trying, or how to work out better tactics. Also, as a former healer in big group fights, I shudder at the lack of quick-to-read health indicators especially if people are spread out. However, maybe if the encounters dont require a designated healer, it may work =) Also, again, my point on zooming/game performance/dev time and yes, attractiveness of the game to players
I guess my point is...mileage varies, everyone has their opinion and expectations. To you and some others, health bars are hand-holding, others dont. Some want the obvious indicators and quest trackers (you and me both don't). Some want total realism, some want some convenience, some find it fun to not have too much information, some dont consider it fun to have to keep track by changing pixels on several mobs surrounding you and moving around.
I can't even imagine how tough some of those decisions are for the developers, as tastes are often so very different and even though you don't want the game to be carbon-copy, you also want to attract enough people... interesting discussion, thank you!

 

I think that games did indeed regress over time in some aspects. Best example is Ultima 7. If you look at this game it still has one of the most interactive and alive worlds ever created for a game. The schedules of NPCs have never really been matched since then. Also most gameworlds in (MMO)RPGs are static. You can't move this chair around, open this drawer or take this fork from the table etc.
So I think going back to those things can indeed be an evolution if you consider the state most games are in right now. If games - for whatever reason - regressed in some aspects, it is an evolution to reach a certain level again.

Also, hand holding is called so for a reason. If I hold the hand of my child for too long, it may become used to it and won't let go although it may not be the best for it hold onto my hand for much longer as there are other, better and more interesting ways for it to find it's way around in life.

The same for health bars or floating numbers. People are used to it because they feel safe this way. Safe because they know when an enemy reaches 50% or 25% of it's health. They feel safe because they can use the tacticts they always use. Being confronted with something unknown that goes against the things one is used to is scary but also exciting.

 

Thank you for your reply! Some very interesting points there (as I said, I was actually asking about more opinions and what people thought).
However, let's take your example and put it into a dungeon-like setting. I walk in with my group, and it's not some human I fight, but, say a dragon. What tells me whether I really actually make a difference? What tells me I am actually damaging it in a way that I eventually kill it? What it it has an ability to become invulnerable until I use a certain spell or mechanic? How do I know? And with everything that is going on, will mere graphical indicators like new wounds tell me enough?
I agree, you don't want people to just go with the same tacts every single time. But not all boss fights in the MMO-world work like that anyway. Some fights required or at least were easier with a certain type of class/type of magic. If they wanna do away with the old trinity (I'm all for something new, believe me!) then there should be many ways to fight a boss. But if I have to guess or endlessly have to try and never kill the boss because I dont even know whether I make a dent or use the wrong mechanic, is it still fun? Will this motivate people to just try different tactics...and which ones? If they dont know roundabout what health is left, will they go "OK, let's all respec and regear to magic? Let's only use ranged attacks?"...ARE there so many possible other tactics? Or shouldn't the actual boss mechanics and a mix of player abilities/spells make for an interesting fight? Maybe random changes in the fight, more interesting mechanics that make it much harder to simply go by the numbers, which would work even better without the trinity? Imagine fights that are doable, but very different when you go in with three melee guys in heavy armor, versus two light armor casters plus a healer, versus a "tank", dps, healer vs. something quite whacky.
I'd love if the game would make it possible for all these groups and others to fight a boss without having to use cookie cutter specs, the same tacts every time and with every setup, and a set rotation. More randomness etc. (Thats risky though, as randomness can make a fight incredibly unfair or even unbeatable sometimes).
This I would prefer very much over taking away health bars, as to me, this would make the game and fights more interesting and encourage new tactics than simply not knowing whether you really do enough damage.


Let me suggest something: If they DO away with health-bars (and I am not opposed to it, I just don't see the point if the only alternative is other graphical indicators like damaged armour or blood or scars, especially since that might be a problem for slow computers, or people who simply cant track of that and everything else going on in a dungeon), how about this:


Let's say the boss is a dragon.
If you actually are able to hurt it, it bleeds, and at certain points it emits a roar or scream (or is this too much hand-holding) to let you know you just took away a huge chunk. Damage it further, it gets slower. Even further, it gets really angry and uses stronger abilities.
But wouldnt that be similar to a health bar? I think this would be more interesting than just having a mob, beating on it and not knowing whether you make a big impact or none at all, or having to squint for changes in graphics on a moving object.
If it was done this way, it might be interesting, but maybe thats too much hand-holding again? I am wondering, not saying it is.

Finally, I wonder how people who like to perfect their skills and spec would feel with no bars and numbers. Sure, if I level and suddenly, a large skeleton takes 4 secs to kill instead of 20 a few levels ago, that feels like success. But if I wanna find out what best to put my points in, what abilities I mix to do well in fights, I think I'd prefer the option to have at least a bit more information on how the changes I just made work, other than "2 secs faster to kill the mob".

I get your point on hand-holding very much, I just wonder whether health bars can be so easily removed, whether other graphical indicators wouldnt be just the same, if no indicators at all would really be fun to many people, and while you and me draw a line at some point, and in our cases, draw them at different lines, I try to keep in mind how much it will work even on older systems, works for people with impaired sight, works for people who wanna play but have a problem keeping track when there is no help, and a choice for players how much hand-holding they want.
Again: I am glad I don't have to make the decisions, as it is impossible to please everyone, like in this case.

 

I think visual feedback like visible wounds, some blood that becomes more and more, limping, roaring etc. would feel much more organic. It could of course also be seen as hand holding but due to the more organic nature and the realism it wouldn't be as intrusive into the game experience, imo.

 

And honestly, being able to see your opponent physically provides an edge in combat as well.

Having a weapon provides an edge in combat.

Just the act of entering combat, provides an edge in combat. Having one person have a healthbar and the other person not have one provides an edge over the person without the health bar, but if they become togglable, it becomes that other person's decision to handicap themselves in that way.

 

Sounds like he was emphisizing a change in how you experience the games story.

 

I think this is a reason enough to remove all numbers and health bars! Just as you train and develop in real life you need to go on your gut feeling and test your abilities to notice the difference. That will not only remove a lot of min/max behaviour but also increase role-playing.

I'm also all for removing numbers for stats and get an estimation instead. For strengh you would have things like really weak, weak, descent and things like that and not numbers.

 

I can't wait to see this game returning to the nostalgic, pure and awesome ways of the MUD - which is the true missing ring between RPG and MMO (and I played beyond any reasonable human limit back in the pioneer days).

Let's return to the late 80s, DIKU's and Aber's all over the place! Take that, 30 years of expanding this market! The uber nerd niche is the only possible outcome in this world corrupted by Blizzard and Sony.

Code:

The Gargoyle lashes at you and misses!
The Gargoyle bites you and deals minor damage!
The Gargoyle whips its tail at you and CRITICALLY hits you, and deals substantial damage!
Your longsword attack hits the Gargoyle and wounds it!
Your offhand attack misses the Gargoyle!
Your longsword attack devastates the Gargoyle and heavily wounds it!
The Gargoyle is visibly wounded.
Your health is above average.
What you do?
(A)ttack, (C)ast a spell, (H)ide in shadows, try to (F)lee,
(E)quip something, (Q)uaff a potion ==> [  ]

 

I take this as sarcasm

Yet you seem to ignore the fact that some games from the 90s were much more "advanced" than modern games. We did have a huge step backwards sometimes in the 90s and haven't manage to get back to this high point yet.

 

Of course it is sarcasm (even if I fondly remember those days).

The sense of my post is: beware to play too much the elitist, self righteous, harder-core-than-thou card.

You'll end up playing the game with the same audience and playerbases of the 90s, but with development and maintenance costs of the 10s.

 

You may be sarcastic but to replace the damage numbers with a description like the old MUDs had would be a step forward in my opinion.

"The Gargoyle whips its tail at you and CRITICALLY hits you, and deals substantial damage!" give you much more immersion than "Critical hit for 24 hits"

 

Except that most people don't want to read their game; the ones that do are still playing MUDs and freeware games in their browsers.

 

Just turn off your screen if you want to play hard mode.

 

Zatoichi mode enabled.

 

Well for those that do not want to read their game is should not matter what that text says... So then we could remove it all together. Thing is that there is some that want both visual and text feed back on what actually happens. For me tough most important thins is to remove the numbers.

 

Numbers, health bars, outlines, sticky target, smart auto attack. Are hand holding, I like holding hands, good times