Are health bars, outlines and floating numbers hand holding?

Richard Garriott said that he didn't want much - if any - handholding in SotA. Yet we do have - at least optional - health bars, outlines around enemies and objects as well as floating damage numbers.

What has changed? Are those elements not hand holding?
I mean if we think back to the older Ultimas did we know how much health an enemy had left? How could we ever open doors or pick items up without an outline around them? How could we ever survive a battle without knowing exactly how much points of damage we did?

I play without floating numbers and health bars and guess what, the game can be played this way and - gosh - I can survive battles!
And I believe that I would even know that a door can be opened by trying to click on it without having the game show me with an outline that I can use the door.

Sorry if I have to say this but for me the implementation of all of those elements not only goes againt the plans of not having much hand holding in the game but it shows that the devs give in too much to the MMO-crowd who don't want to leave their comfort zones and don't want to try anything new.
So does this mean that only those interested in the story are the ones whose hands won't be held? And the common MMO crowd - who have so much influence in how the game seems to shape and change - will get what every they want, including hand holding?

I though it was said that Richard and his team want to evolve the genre, doing new things. But what we see with health bars, floating numbers and outlines does not show any kind of evolution. This way SotA will not be the totally new game experience, this way it will be a run-of-the-mill MMO.

What has happened since the Kickstarter campaign?

 

Evolving something doesnt mean you have to change every little aspect of it in total.

Highlighting targets is a result of not having full on manual combat. If you have absolute control of your character's movments in combat, and hits were scored base don whether your weapon came in contact with a target, then you could do fine without a targeting system. But you, i imagine, would have a bigger latency problem in fights than there already is to overcome.


Health bars have been used in place of physical cue's like visible injuries or weakening of whatever your fighting. Which i imagine would also cause alot mroe lag if implimented.

This game already feels alot different to me than more recent MMOs.

 

I think once they implement more information about player and creature conditions via graphic visualization they will remove the health bars, helpfully even your own health bar.

 

To answer your title question, I do not see these types of things as hand holding and think the option for players to turn them off is good.

To me hand holding is more like marked quest npcs with arrows showing the way to them and world maps that show you the path there. Things that walk players through the game with out them having to actually figure things out on their own. Basically it makes the game more 'friendly' and guides your through it.

I do think things like selective pvp and non full loot could be considered as hand holding. Not that I am saying the game needs these things. Only that it is a toning down of the game to make it more 'friendly'.

 

But knowing exactly how much health an enemy has left is making the game easier and you don't have to figure out by yourself when the enemy drops dead.
The same for outlines. You don't figure out yourself what items are interactive, the game shows it to you.
Don't you agree?

 

To some extent yes. More so on the out line part and sparkly nodes. To me knowing the amount of health does not really allow me to kill it easier. It is just info. If I was really fighting something then I would have some info on its current heath by looking at it. But yeah.. for hardcore play it is nice to be able to turn these off.

Also this is kind of why I threw in the example on full loot and open pvp. The addition of 'friendly' options does make the game accessible to more players. I think it is a thin line and some things will just have to be good as options to allow more types of players to enjoy it.

 

As random as damage is, it would be impossible to tell how hurt a creature or person is without any visual cues.

If they intend to add skills in the game that are affected by the level of health you or your target has, it would be entirely a guessing game without a damage indicator.

I dont notice any outlines around thigns i can pick up. An outline only shows up around something i physically click on

 

If it drops, it is dead
Realistically we would even need to take into consideration how hurt an enemy is. Being hit by a two-handed hammer should have a lasting impact on the enemy or what about being slashed open by a sword or burned by a fireball? I doubt that people would run around as if nothing happened when their head is smashed in, their belly is wide open and they are burning...

As for outlines around items... I still don't get why we need to be told that doors or chests can be opened. In many other games - especially older games - the game doesn't tell the players that doors can be opened. Why does SotA need to tell us? For me this seems as if they just implemented this because MMO players are used to this from other MMOs...

 

Just realistically, if you were fighting an enemy, you'd be able to see how injured it was, or how close to defeat it was. It'll be cool if RG's wish is in the game, that all of the injuries were visible physically, but since I see this as kind of realistic, I don't see it as a form of hand-holding. Ultimas traditionally haven't done this, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Its more immersion-breaking than it is hand-holding... When you see a combat bar, you're reminded that you're in a game.

 

A lot of single player RPGs for the last decade or so have included health bars and outlines. Some also include floating damage numbers. I like to play with them on because it's the best way to see how a battle is going.

My question for you Darkmoon is: why do you care if I have it on if you have a chance to turn it off for yourself?

 

Outlines for the purpose of telling us which doors or chests can be opened is useful when not all doors or chests can be opened. Also, targetting objects could make it easier to interact with items using a keyboard instead of a mouse, tho im not sure if that sort of functionality is in the game yet.

As far as telling how injured somethign is based on whether it's dead or not, removes any potential strategic implications of skills based on how close to death your target is.
Realistically, the entire comabt system of the game would have to be very drastically changed if one thrust to someone's stomach or blow to the skull permenantly disabled them.


Not to mention there wouldnt be a single soul in the game without stealth, because that opening stab to the back would be the end of the fight

 

I get the point the OP is making (as strange as it may seem in the days of modern MMOs that give you info on EVERYTHING and make sure getting lost is almost impossible to do). Someone mentioned that health bars may be removed.
Here are my random thoughts:

- If you talk realism, EMPstrike makes a great point. With hitboxes and hitting working the way it does, the outlines are kinda needed. What if you have two mobs standing in front of you...how do you know which one you are hitting. In a rl-world setting, you WOULD know. Not knowing which one you hit would make things though (esp. if they move, like those archers do), and if you wanna focus on one first in order to get them down, it would be kind of hard without the targeting/frame. In a realistic setting, things'd be different, but I doubt the game system right makes this possible, is too unprecise.

- Sure, in a more realistic setting, you'd be able to judge by the effect of your weapons. Bleeding wounds, chopped off limbs, stabs etc. However a) why having to hit the mob at all? Why not just decapitate them? WHich would make many fights trivial. What about the load for the gfx-processor/card? If people would need to go by visual hints to see how "dead" an enemy is, wouldnt that require more graphical detail, or force players to zoom in more? Would this work for the majority of players?

- If you thought a big spider as an example, how to judge how close to death it is? How to know what a certain amount of wounds means? And if body parts would fall away, like limbs... imagine chopping off the limbs of a spider, wouldnt that mean it can't run after you and you can take it down with ranged attacks?

- Again, I think a lack of health bar would be more realistic. But no real indicator other than graphical details (see above, gfx requirements) would be frustrating. Maybe for simple and easy mobs, it would work. But how about bigger bosses that require groups to kill them? How to judge how well you are doing? Sure, you can always go "if it drops, you were doing ok, if not, you weren't". I don't know how well that would go over with those that love group-PVE, as I think learning how and how fast to damage a powerful enemy is part of learning the fights, your class, etc.

- One of the reviews I read before playing the game said "There are no level indicators on mobs. Basically, to learn whether you can handle a mob is to attack it and see who dies faster, you or the mob. If its you, retreat". How would this work if there are no health indicators? This is just my opinion, but I'd hate to have NO indicator at all, or having to take a really close look at the body of my enemy in order to judge how damaged he is, while keeping an eye on my deck and on mobs in the area to avoid incoming adds.

I am sure a "no health bar, but other indicators" system could be implemented, but Im not sure how much of the game would have to be redone. Maybe the health bars will be removed, but I hope there will be some other ways to track whether you actually make a dent. =) But no indicators at all - I simply don't think it'd make sense, or be much fun. And if it was about more realism, then one-shotting (or being one-shotted) with a well-aimed decapitation would kinda take out a lot of challenge, unless a sysrtem with aiming at body parts plus quickly blocking such blows would be implemented.

These were some random thoughts, and just my opinion. I think the game does quite well on the "no hand-holding" front with the lack of big "!" or "?" indicators on mobs, quest trackers, mini maps, quest texts that tell you exactly where to go (I only just found the guy in the Owls head tavern that the lady in the Kingsport harbor sent me to look for, simply because I didnt bother asking for his name before). I spent half an hour trying to find my boat back to the Vale today, totally lost in a town, looking for all the boats.

Where to draw the line? Put hunger back into the game (no hunger could be considered hand-holding too), like in the first Ultimas? Restrict carrying capacity to an even more realistic level (how to put logs and several swords in a bag while being avble to fight)? Have the NPCs go to sleep so at night, no trading at all at night, with no way to speed up time like in Skyrim? Permadeath, or at least losing your possessions on death (that, in combination with no health bars would, IMO, severely lower the potential player-base).

I know what you mean though, and of course the "handholding" thing will always be debatable. Some will wish for more, while some will be put off completely when trying SotA, as so many other MMOs have put in so many conveniences and mechanics to make stuff easier, which people might expect in a new MMO.
If you ask my opinion...I think the game has a very nice old school feeling, and I don't think that a lack of indicators (bars or graphics or whatever else) would make the game more enjoyable. Challenging? Yeah? Frustrating and confusing? Most likely, that too. Just my opinion though, ymmv

 

It is unquestionably handholding. I will add my hemlockian thoughts to this tonight.

 

It is not handholding. Until technology allow us to see how damaged our enemy without a number/bar, then we could totally eliminate it. At this point of development if you want to rely only on the number of hits you have dealt to a mob to know if you have damaged it, its Ok but it should be optional because it is only your imperfect way to interpret combat (numbers and bar are imperfect too).

 

Health bars are great for RTSs and strategy games, not so nice for RPGs. My wish is that they remove all of the artificial UI "helpers" altogether, but that would mean adding more dev time on things like damage states, texturing, animation etc. It's easy for guys like CIG who have the staffing and financial capacity...not so easy for Portalarium.

The visualisation of health, highlighting characters etc needs a lot of work. As I said elsewhere, I want them to bring back the small coloured dot....at least as an option. I'd also like to see a better highlight shader.
IIRC Ultima 9 did not have health bars at all for enemies, neither do games like Elder Scrolls. I have never once needed to see a detailed analysis of an enemy's health. Floating stats above people is one of the things that turns me off MMOs which RG has so often criticised. If all I'm staring at is a bar, and not the actual enemy, then why bother with the enemies at all. They could be floating hyper-colour orbs and you'd still stare at the health bar.

On the issue of knowing how well you are doing against boss enemies....in the ideal situation with no health indicators you would see certain animation cues that tell you what effect you are having on the enemy. If the enemy reacts, you know your attack has an effect. If it continues swinging like nothing happened then it didn't work. This would then open it up for retaliation attacks by the enemy. If you land too many successful attacks at once you can expect the boss to fly into a rage and unleash powerful attacks to push you into a defensive position. (some examples would be Monster Hunter and Dark Souls).

I can only hope Portalarium try to push the boundaries a little more as best they can.

 

No, they're helpful information, to let players know the effect they are having on the environment.

It would be like removing the dialogue from NPCs, when you asked them about things or to progress a quest, because the NPC saying what was going on is "too much hand holding".

 

I didnt play the ultima games but, i just saw that ultima 2 did show the player's health.

Ultima online had health bars, and i thought i had heard that it was one of the first big MMO's


Would you consider a hotbar that shows you what skills you have aailable as Handholding?
A stat screen that displays your strength, dexterity, etc would fall into the same category as a health bar as well.

Also focus meters would have to be removed.

 

Although you used the word environment where I know you meant adversaries- your comment confirms what I wrote. Health bars provide an edge during battle.

Regards,

 

From what I've seen, it has about the same informational feedback as UO did. In UO, you could drag someone's health bar and sticky it. Granted, you couldn't see their mana/stamina (what Anatomy and Eval were for), but otherwise it was easy to see what health they had left, and general PvP knowledge meant you knew roughly how many times they could cast a particular combo. There seems to be a lot more in terms of pools - health/mana amounts - than in UO, so having some sort of display of health loss to compare to an overall bar is important for knowing how effective your attack was.

When you were attacking them, they had a color overlay depending on their crim state - blue, red, grey, whatever - which was customizable and kind of an eye sore (made those blues real easy to see running through the woods). I don't see how the vague outline is worse than that.

As others have said, until we have some significant graphic feedback of our actions, numbers and bars are imperative to understanding our effect in the game. And I believe Lord British is trying to reach out and be accessible to all players, not just high end PC gamers, which means those options are quite limiting to his fanbase. Like above, CIG has more than 10x the pledges, but the game is barely running on major gaming rigs (which will hopefully get better after optimization). There's a careful balance that needs to be struck so SotA isn't just one of the 100-150 player populated freeshards that die in a year or two.

 

Yes, and the words an NPC speaks provide an edge during questing :3