Are health bars, outlines and floating numbers hand holding?

There's a common mantra that realism, immersion and unobtrusive HUDs are only good until they're not fun. While I grew up on UO and minimal feedback from the game, appreciating crappy and broken gameplay as "realistic" (terrible RNG = "glancing blows", for example), I was also 12 and games were different then. More importantly, players were different; I played with a cheerleader and a soccer mom in Minoc and fought alongside a pastor in Delucia. Not so in sandboxes these days, not nearly as often, anyway.

If we aim to maintain a healthy population, the game needs to keep up with the times. It's hard to feel immersed in a world of 100 players or less; there are UO freeshards out there with more players than nearly every non-Japanese EA server. If a modern online game is to compete, it needs to have a living, breathing world.

If that means some general outlines and spartan feedback from the video game (as opposed to the C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!! billion HP spam over people's heads) to ensure we have a populace to engage with, then I'm more than happy to make that sacrifice and hold hands with the "Trams".

 

Thrilled by your post.

I guess I'd draw the line where the engine feels like it is playing the game for me or a task becomes too tedious/ repetitive.

Health bars in team play? Don't know! Little experience in team play. Since I imagine you are experienced here I feel your impression would be more useful than mine, what do you think?

Chat. Whether keywords are highlighted text or accented in voice, they are still hints.
On one hand it is fun to investigate. On the other- I did not enjoy typing the keywords in SotA as much as I thought I would. But I attribute my anguish more to the uninteresting chat window.
I'd prefer dialogue top of the screen U7 style, with letters appearing underneath as I type to an NPC or friend. But I could also be content with clicking keywords.
As for listening to voice dialogue, wouldn't emphasized keywords become easy to discern after a while? Either that or too difficult to discern. I can't imagine a happy medium.
Whilst cost prohibitive- acted dialogue would be worthwhile if done well. Assuming SotA doesn't have a lot of dialogue (which I'm certain you'll agree it will).

Happy with your idea of NPC's being unwilling to repeat something too often. The program would need to omit non-repeatable lines from the chat log.

Whether whispering is hand-holding depends what the whispering is about. Though, since group aid is the purpose of group play mechanics- I think it necessary.

On one hand losing contact with a group member in game adds to difficulty/realism. On the other, group communication is so important in team play it would likely be better to hear associates from any distance. Imagine associates consistently getting lost without you to direct them via chat! Does this sound a reasonable assessment?

Whilst seeing an enemies complete constitution should not be possible- you should know your own stats.

I agree it would be more immersive, even realistic and less hand-holding if you got hungry or would starve unless you eat in between.

I like the idea that you become feeble and decrepit before starving to death.

All-though I consider the idea excellent, I have no idea, technically, how dings, burns, holes in armor etc would affect PC performance other than suggesting it might run slower. This would be a great question for Joviex, or devs.

If something is to be gleaned from your input, and mine, perhaps it is that the sate of such features and whether they can be ebabled/disabled should vary from SP mode to MP mode to PvP mode etc. What do you think?

Regards,

 

Things like "C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!! billion HP spam over people's heads" will deter some players but attract others while a more minimal approach will deter/attract the exact opposite. So the big question is what kind of players are the devs looking for? Where can they find market shares that no games covers at the moment? From witch games can get steal market shares?

I see a huge unclaimed market of players that do not like to see those huge numbers overhead, glowing swords when you make a critical hit and so on. I think SotA would get more players with a more down to earth approach not only for the untapped market but I also think that SotA will have a hard time competing with the existing high budget games out there so they need to find their own niche.

 

Ya those red bars above the heads, I think i'd rather see bloody messes and visual queues like blood dripping or crippled bones, staggering, etc.

 

I think most of us would, but SotA doesn't seem - to me, anyway - like it's aimed at the high end PC crowd. This isn't meant to be offensive and simply just an observation, but I've looked through the membership here: I'm seeing a lot of people who were playing UO when they were in their 30s and 40s, and that was almost 20 years ago. They likely aren't dropping $900 on a gaming rig to play a visceral PvP game. I think the niche is going to be the casual fantasy buff who wants to step into their damsel-warrior's shoes and slay some skele-bones or hunt a dragon or sew a dress, not necessarily play out like Rust or DayZ.

Ultima (and by extension, SotA) was extremely bizarre high fantasy. I would argue that most people are interested in glowing swords and large spells, even though myself (and some people in this thread, by the looks of it) are more interested in the low fantasy style of gaming. I couldn't stomach a game like WoW with all the glitter and glam every time I toss a Level Zero Fireball, but I did appreciate some of the simpler elements of ArcheAge's combat effects (though the "jiggling" was a bit off-putting).

However, while those same players may not be addicted to the 9,999 spam above their target's heads (something that became popular post Final Fantasy VI, I'd argue), they still want to have some easily recognizable visual cues that show just how effective or ineffective they are at a particular moment. That ultimately results in more people engaging in activities they may not normally be comfortable in (ie, PvP), and I'm more interested in variety of opponents than splitting hairs over minuscule numbers overhead or faint colored outlines (that seem to get lost in the effects and whirlwind of combat, from what I've witnessed).

 

>Thrilled by your post.
Likewise! =)

>I guess I'd draw the line where the engine feels like it is playing the game for me or a task becomes too tedious/ repetitive.
So do I, but of course, our definition of that point is different, which makes things like these so tough for devs, I think. Having an indicator telling me that the boss is low on health, that I am making a progress, to me, isn't the game playing the game for me. I still am the one finding out how to fight and beat the monster/boss, how to keep myself alive, what the best tactic is. And I love it when they are challenging, require a tactic, etc.
I would feel the game is playing for me if there were those question/exclamation marks, a quest tracker, the usual quest systems...something like that. In that case, I think "Why is this even called a QUEST? It's more like follow the blinking arrow, and click".
I think that still is different from having a rather clear indication whether you make progress on a boss.
I am sure we agree on quite a few things that are hand-holding or just take away the fun...to me, its often related to quests, crafting, gearing. The infamous "cookie cutter specs" is of course more player-created than something the game does for me, but I would like to have a game where I can combine skills and stats to my liking, without being required to do so by other players. Thats off-topic though =)

>Health bars in team play? Don't know! Little experience in team play. Since I imagine you are experienced here I feel your impression would be more useful than mine, what do you think?
I just think it can be very frustrating if you try to tackle a challenging boss as a group, and never know how close you really get. Sure, if the mob dies, you know you did ok or good, but what if you keep dieing, no matter what tactic you use, and you clearly dont know whether you actually got even close. There may be "hardcore players" who keep going and going, but I think those that want to have fun with those encounters might get frustrated quickly, especially if the fight is challenging.
I mentioned that there could be other indicators. Maybe certain screams the monster emits, or tougher abilities when the mob gets "scared for its life" or something. However, basically, that would be almost LIKE a health bar. You get a signal that you reached a certain waypoint or percentage (if its programmed like "mob at 75 percent = special emote/scream"). Some will probably set up a guide on the web explaining what each signal means. So you are back at the game giving you that information which a health bar provides, only more precise.
No indicator at all? Not sure how immersive or realistic that would be, on top of being totally frustrating as you never know whether you actually got close or not.
It can be quite motivating if you keep trying and trying, and you know you got close, and still failed... you try again, harder, or a different strategy. If I never know how close I got, I might give up, and I imagine I am not the only one, or the group might give up or break apart.

See, I can do without incredibly detailed stuff. I don't need numbers on the health bar or percentages. I just would like to know I am getting somewhere. If it forces me to zoom in to see graphical changes (as not every mob might be as big as a dragon), especially when I like to zoom out a bit, I just don't know it's an improvement or less hand-holding.

>I agree it would be more immersive, even realistic and less hand-holding if you got hungry or would starve unless you eat in between.

>I like the idea that you become feeble and decrepit before starving to death.

I would find this more realistic and immersive too, and wouldn't be against it as long as it's done in a more "natural" or less strict way as in, say, the old Ultimas. Like, you have "150 food units", and you lose one on each step. That, to me, was annoying. And I didn't feel like it added anything to the game really. Stack up on food, eat when low on food, continue. Other than remembering to bring food, it didn't add much.
If it was more of a general thing, where you slowly notice youre less effective, or your sight kinda blurs a bit (just a random idea) etc, it might be more immersive. It also might be a good gold-sink or encourage the market for food if players can cook better food than NPC-bought rations.
Not sure whether it might cause problems regarding weight and stuff, and how much it really DOES add to the game (that is a thing for me. It would prolly be more realistic or immersive, but does it add anything to the game? Does it require you to think or act strategically other than "I need to remember to buy food". For more immersion, other...body functions could be added, but would they be worth the effort and actually add aynthing to the game OTHER than just immersion, which doesn't matter for everyone as much as for you or me, or is defined differently by different people.
So, in a nutshell - I wouldn't mind if it was less "by the numbers" than it was in the old Ultimas.

> This would be a great question for Joviex, or devs.
Agreed,. I hope I didnt sound like I am a specialist on this. I just know that not everyone has an awesome PC or gfx card. Even though one could go "Well, recommended requirements are higher anyway, get a better computer", I think it's not a bad idea to make it possible for those with slower or non-gaming PCs to play. (I think that is one thing WOW had going for it... it works decent even on older systems). Now, if someone with a slow PC still wants to play, he or she could turn down the graphics...it would look less real or pretty, but the person could still play.
But what if the health of a boss or mob is shown by graphical details, possibly on a small enemy. Would this keep people from even trying? If those indicators were made to work even at very low resolutions, wouldn't they be close to a health bar too? And also, some people might struggle with keeping track of graphical indicators on a monster model which moves, maybe at bad lightning, plus their action bar/deck, the surroundings etc.
So I don't know how well it would work. Plus, I am thinking of mobs like those ghosts in the ruins...black clouds... how to display progress on them?
Also, even without a trinity in game, what if you enjoy being a healer, and keeping your group alive, focussing on keeping your buddies healed. This might be tough if you have to keep track of blood, wounds and burn holes on 2-4 fellow players who also move, in order to know when to heal them and with what spell.

I would like to point out something: I am not totally set on health bars. I don't need health bars showing me HP to the exact number or percentage. I am open to try out an alternative if it works, makes sense and doesn't restrict people too much (like in...if someone would try to play Sota on a system WAY BELOW the basic specs, of course I wouldnt expect things to still go smoothly or be doable then!).
Also, I didnt mean to totally shoot down the idea of doing without health bars or something. If there is a workable, useable alternative that actually improves the game (as in immersion/realism/less hand-holding, but not to make a lot of things much more COMPLICATED or even impossible), I am willing to try, of course.
Also, I know it's not a black or white thing...definitions and wishes and demands and expectations are SO varied, and I think there will ALWAYS be someone unhappy. I think the devs simply won't be able to make everyone happy.
And my posts are less "LOLZ YOU ARE WRONG, AND I AM RIGHT AND I WILL CHANGE YOUR OPINION", but they often are random thoughts, or trying to point out something that is missing from the suggestion/idea.

I hope that both you AND me will end up liking the final result, plus of course the other players. Maybe user options? Use a health bar if you like it, switch if off if you hate it or feel like it kills immersion? So no one will be forced to give up on something he or she would like, and I don't think it would give either side an unfair advantage. It might require more work from the devs, but also might be attractive for a wider range of players.
So... I hope we both will end up happy, and even though we disagree on some things, I think we agree on many of these points (quest markers etc.). Thank you for your thoughts and replying to mine!

 

Just because something is high-fantasy don't mean it needs a hi-tech solution to deliver the entertainment.

 

True, but there's a reason the last time MUDs were seen at E3 was nineteen-ninety-never.

 

We are talking of graphic presentation instead of numbers here so that would be a step away from MUDs not closer to MUDs.

 

Description-based combat was brought up (admittedly sarcastically, but for legitimate reasons) earlier in this increasingly pointless thread, around the same time that graphic presentation as an option quickly lead to the observation that it would increase a gap in players in skill (meaning variety of players) and access (meaning players who have the computers for such systems), both leaving less people to play in the SPO online game.

 

...Not to mention that the artistic/programming effort needed to transfer a text-based description of health and damage inflicted into something appreciably graphical is HUGE. Animations, textures, meshes, reaction code, for every creature class... Risk of brain explosion is sky high!

If this game seeks to appeal a niche playerbase, raising the difficulty bar to satisfy the hardcore gamers, and alienating the users accustomed to more casual and mainstream interfaces, I find hard to believe it will ever have the resources to finance such a massive deed.

(I was the one citing MUDs - with a tear of nostalgia - and text-based combat)

 

Maybe not hand-holding but unaesthetic, distracting, immersion-breaking, obsolete and often non needed at all.

 

Well you mist the two things somewhat but:
Today we have text saying X hit Y for Z damage in our chat window, I think it would be a great idea to replace that with more MUD style of text (without damage numvers).or completely remove it.

As RG earlier have said that he dislikes the hp bars so my guess is that we will get some kind of visual feedback and as I have sais I truly like that idea and I think it will attract a lot of players because that will be a new approach for a MMO like game.

 

They might be, I dislike especially outlines, though they make sense, otherwise how would you know which enemy you have targeted?

Either way I do not mind any of them as much as runic translations. What is the point of having runic on the map and in the game, if there are texts in Latin alphabet below...

 

Targeted enemies could become somewhat brighter in color. This might look not so annoying and might be a bit more natural and more subtle.

 

I'm not saying remove the bar altogether, some people need those UI elements to understand how far they have damaged the enemy, such as a boss fight that was mentioned. However, even the health bar has an outline. Would it be ok to consider a more minimal version of the health bar? Such as just the health bar (&Name)? Or what about showing only one health bar for the enemy you have selected, rather than every enemy in the area? Also for AoE attacks their health bars could pop up for the time that damage is being done, and then still focus on the one enemy's health bar, and the rest fade away until hit again.

 

Daven,
I really like your suggestions! On top of them, maybe make health bars switchable, so if anyone doesnt want them, he or she simply can take them off. They could be more "raw", as in "not exact percentage or points", or maybe a bit less...obvious. Or, again, a switchabe option. Having only the targeted mobs bar active is a nice idea instead, and tbh, I am not even sure I'd need or want the "visible for a short time when using AOE". Matter of opinion of course.
I like those ideas, but then again, I never was against the bars in the first place =)