Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Vladamir Begemot, Nov 28, 2019.
It's always the players fault. The customer is never right.
I think it's an excellent concept to have crafters enhance the loot tables with good gear but as everyone else says, there needs to be decent gold compensation. I would imagine this would be some kind of math involved with stats or items and materials used.
Bosses also need to give out their fair share of unique to them loot as well. Or even a title. Yes, I'm bringing up our lack of titles again!
1 hour 27 minuites in
He doesnt say its the players fault loot is bad. He said he dramatically increased the player stuff drop rate on low end stuff so loot would be better for lower players, but players dont sell enough stuff to keep up with that increase because he didnt set the value high enough so its not worth it to sell, and the loot table essentially went dry and that was his attempted fix to getting crafted items to new players as loot.
The OP sounds like he got a little up in arms over someone else just hearing chris say "Players dont sell enough" before he explained how he agrees he didnt increase the sell value enough.
I think your suggestions are good and that overproduction is a big problem but I don’t think there would be a crash of gold value. Even in your example you are talking about a loss of 3/4 between material costs and NPC sales price while you should at least get the material costs if you are selling to an avatar. This way the current 3 billion value is also just the current NPC value and would raise to e.g. 60 billion if they adjust the NPC sales prices but avatars would already pay 240 billion for these items (avatars = 4/4 of the resource price; NPCs = 1/4 of the resource price)...but maybe I’m wrong as I’m not selling that much.
As far as remember the replies of devs there is already math involved with the loot tables and it should be that the more expensive the item the more likely you have to fight a more dangerous enemy to get this item as loot. But the current problem is there are simply no items in the loot table to be added to your loot as no one is selling them to NPCs because of the low price the NPC are paying.
If avatars are generous they are gifting the item directly to an avatar as this way you are getting a thank you and know that this item will be of good use for the young avatar. But gifting items to NPCs (because the current pocket money you get cannot be counted as selling) is like throwing them away and I guess salvaging the item is still more profitable if you are valuing the chance to get some rare reagents.
Player don't sell enough MEANS it's the players fault that nice things don't drop. Unfortunately there are NOT enough players to sell their decent items to make loot worth it. Since it's not worth selling anything to NPCs players old and new will only get the junk that the devs have put in the loot table.
Just like everything else wrong in the game it has been brought up so many times and nothing substantial has happened. The only thing I ever see happen is people who leave the game after trying it for a few hours complaining on Steam and other websites how bad lot is, which means no one else will try the game.
But sure, have players sell all their nice stuff so another player picks it up and puts it on their vendor. That will solve the loot issues.
Did you read the rest of Arkah's post? I thought Arkah was pretty clear in saying the actual line was :
Seems to me, by reading this, that Chris acknowledges that it is his fault because he did Steps 1, 2 and 4 but skipped over step 3. He isn't saying it is the players fault... I know you are upset, but at least read the narrative correctly before grabbing your pitchfork and going to war against someone saying the same thing as you!
From playing yesterday and this morning I can say that unless you count the yokes, obsidian chips, and potions I have not seen any increase. So while YOU can understand the issue I haven't seen any increase. Unless it's going in the next patch, next release or after more important fixes. Sure I'll give the devs a break as to why people trying out this game and leaving and not coming back. We'll just sit back and understand that missed steps are fine. Everything is fine.
Thats what chris said, you wont see any increase, and thats the problem. He increased the drop chance, but there is nothing going into the loot table to drop, so you wont see it increased. And the reason its not increased, according to what he said, is that the incentive to sell crafted stuff to NPCs is not good enough.
So you not seeing any increase, HE not seeing any increase, even after he increased it, you both agree with each other that there isnt an increase happening.
I was sayign that the OP of this thread is gung ho about hearsay of hearsay, that chris said "its the players fault". Im saying he didnt say that, he was saying he has a system where players should be selling to NPCs to increase loot drops, but it isnt happening because he didnt give a good enough incentive for players to do so.
I had a friend bring up that reselling a item you find in the loot table puts it back into the loot table, and i dont think that happens. Otherwise we wouldnt have seen a decrease in this stuff dropping, so im pretty sure if you find it and sell it to an NPC, its gone for good. Might be another good question to ask chris
Thanks @Arkah EMPstrike , yes, I rage.
First take away, he probably should have let people know that the low level gear sell price has been increased, maybe he did in a stream sometime? But I had no idea that happened.
Second take away, there's no intention for the high end gear to be bought by NPCs, this is all for low end gear and starting players.
Ah well. Sounds like he's going to spend a week on loot, and I guess that probably means more artifacts etc for the high end guys.
I don't think the crafters are going to get any love though. The intention seems to be get crafters to sell low level crap to NPCs (practice junk you make) but I'm not detecting anything here about us ever populating the loot tables with real loot.
So it seems the loot tables will never not suck due to player crafting. Back to artifacts and new non crafted gear drops!
Bzzt. I poked him with the “BoD” idea folks like as a way to incentivize giving gear to the loot tables and he said he likes the idea. So it’s still something that could happen, like crafting miniquests for xp
Hope virtue status: increased.
I'm not sure that it has happened. I've watched every stream since summer -- admittedly not paying close attention to every word, but usually my attention only wanders when he's talking PVP or LUA. And I don't remember ever hearing this on stream or in patch notes. It feels to me like something someone just suggested as a possibility in this thread, and others ran with the idea as something that has already happened.
Now that Arkah has posted the stream link and time stamp, I really do encourage people to listen and make their own judgements rather than making assumptions based on hearsay. I disagree with Arkah's interpretation, which is the way things go -- everyone will always interpret things their own way. But it's always better to do that than to interpret (and judge) someone else's interpretation.
I listened to the video and agree. Thanks for sharing this!
Here is my thought. Increasing the gold NPCs pay is one way, but not the only one.
How about a daily crafting quest, one for each skill. Turn in an item to an NPC, and they give you a small amount of gold, a bit of crafting xp, and the components from the item back. Sure, you'll lose failures, but that's a huge difference from what you get now. Plus, a pretty much guaranteed item from each crafter every day into the loot tables.
I'd like to defend my POT from Sieges by outfitting guards, and see the BoD's @Oracle Watcher mentioned go towards defending major NPC towns.
Way mostly off topic, since it has nothing to do with loot, but kinda on topic since it has to do with consuming gear (the other benefit of selling it to NPCs)
If crafting related artifacts were moved exclusively to BoDs, with the chance to get the special reward increasing with the difficulty of the order, then I think they would be *extremely* popular, especially for newer craftspeople who need something to motivate them through the grind.
Additional producer exp for completing orders, similar to adventure exp for completing quests, would also be a great incentive for new and veteran crafters alike.
Hmm. Thanks for posting that link. Personally, I'm not big on dailies -- I'd much rather make (or try to make) something I know will be useful to someone, even if only a newbie, and sell that to a vendor to go into the loot tables, then spend my time on busywork to get XP. And especially if you guys are talking bulk orders -- that's a lot of mats and time to waste on stuff no one actually wants. And if the bulk orders do end up going into the loot tables, how is that going to help, if it's a bunch of identical stuff made by a bunch of different crafters to the same identical order? Might provide a little temporary variety, but it will quickly become just old hat.
Would much much rather see crafters deciding for themselves what they want to make and the NPCs paying us a half-decent price for it. Yes, the best loot I've ever gotten HAS been someone else's low-durability crafting failure -- every piece is different and new, every piece is useful, and every piece has provided that moment, even if only a moment, of excitement to find something unique that I couldn't feasibly have acquired otherwise.
And the argument that this would somehow ruin the economy? I just don't find it convincing. And if I did, it would fall back to my usual answer -- our economy is already ruined and not worth protecting. Sure, big changes to it would cause some temporary chaos and might upset a handful of people who benefit from the status quo. But time would settle the chaos out and I can't help but believe that the changes would be better for more people in the long run, and thus better for the game in the long run. I'm so tired of seeing the devs suggest changes that seem to be focused on short-term improvements for some with no apparent consideration of the long-term effects on everybody.
Can't you just use crap loot (likely from the BOD's from other players) from PVE drops to fulfill the BOD requirements? So eventually there would be little need to craft things yourself if you have a ton of crafted drops (which we all have I'm sure)? Doesn't sound sustainable to me... rather, it doesn't sound like it would achieve the goal of getting us to craft more and sell to NPC's. Unless the BOD's could only be completed by items crafted by yourself? Hmm...
Separate names with a comma.