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Combat system - deck based combat really bad idea

Discussion in 'Release 10 Feedback' started by Duke Crachazz, Sep 28, 2014.

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  1. StrangerDiamond

    StrangerDiamond Avatar

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    I disagree... current MMO architecture sucks, I've been programming basic VM/lib setups for 5 different games since UO and this is the absolute worst decision I've seen...

    Why go with industry standard architecture ? beyond me... I've even given away solutions way before we went into this direction and it was whoooly ignored.

    It's convenient, its hacker safe... well the core mechanics are hidden from players but to what cost.

    Again I'm going to say it : you guys need a broader perspective.

    It's not like I was going around saying the world is going to end you all need me.

    No in fact I've given away the idea and its worth freakin millions of dollars and I don't even get considered. Nobody even weighted it, all my messages to devs went ignored and more, I've received threats from people I don't even know because my system totally precludes META-GAMING.

    The only people who give me heed is the freakin powegaming meta-abusing RMT sellers... I'm even afraid for my life, no kidding.
     
  2. Rodriguez

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    In certain industries ideas ain't worth millions, only implementations are.

    So I guess the motto is: Show don't tell.
     
  3. StrangerDiamond

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    I've shown way more that anyone's willing to see about that...

    In fact noone even here, anonymously was willing to even consider the idea, what do you expect happened to mine when I worked for Origin, then Electronic Arts ? Beenox ? Blizzard ? Ubisoft ?

    My ideas went around, they are used to justify a MONSTER that "sinks" money into the underground and you see *self-censor*.

    I can't show more than I already did. The simple truth is that switching to my system raises a whole bunch of questions I'm not even able to address myself.

    All of this because some people can't be bothered to care and communicate with others ? There's never been a lamer excuse to unilaterally ignore very simple to implement steps to reproduce freewill ?

    Some people who never posted before have threads with 400 views while those I start are lucky to have 20 views ?

    I'm diggin it really... ideas is all we're about here and they can certainly be worth millions, and I'm certainly not the only one who gets an earful about *self censor*...

    oh yes its not even MY idea... its someone else within Origin systems who is also completely being ignored...

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. No Longer In Use

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    The deck system is driving me right out of playing this game. It's abysmal. If I can't fight properly in an intuitive way, I can't go out and earn gold. If I can't go out and earn gold, I can't buy home deeds, furnishings, etc. If I can't do any of those things, I basically can't play.

    I did the bare minimum to get my hat this release, peeked in on the deck system, and immediately logged out. The new combat system is why participation is dropping release after release. I understand the team feels it's innovative, new, original, etc. That doesn't make it good, and the longer they remain invested in this idea, the more people they're going to lose.

    Some of my referrals have even given me an earful about how much they hate combat. I'm now in the embarrassing position of being an apologist for a system I hate. This is not making me a happy backer....
     
  5. da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com

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    I am in complete agreement with you and I find myself in the same position.

    I have 12 people now that i've gifted the game too and when we get on to play I have to keep explaining the combat system to them and trying to make it seem better than I actually think it is.

    Not a single person whom I have gifted an account to yet has thought the combat system in this game is enjoyable, but I want them to keep playing so I keep encouraging them to log in and trying to make them feel better about things...

    its tiring.
     
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  6. Beaumaris

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    So PvP requires being able to assign skills/spells to a hotkey to come up with tactics? Hmmm. Sure that is the old way done but a plethora of other games. It could work, but wouldn't it just be more of the same?

    Meanwhile, with SOTA's system, we get four levels of strategic choices for combat: 1) Selecting skills, 2) selecting skills to organize in a deck, 3) selecting armor that affects how the deck may play, and 4) selecting focus settings that determine how quickly, etc. your deck may play. After all of those choices, we then get to play tactically as skills (which we did choose) roll out to the skill bar. Multiple skills will still be on the bar and we will skill get to choose to play them tactically. The same skills are still there, but more thinking on the feet is required in this system than in other games.

    Is that bad? No. It actually better because this system requires more (not less) tactical skill. Think about it. Locking skills and always knowing where to go to find them is ... literally .... the easy button! Dealing with a rotating skill set forces us to think on our feet to truly be tactical, vs. pushing easy buttons. It makes combat thinking even more involved, more thoughtful, and even more tactical. Here combat is a tactical situation where you have to combine opponents positioning with the skill available at the moment. PVP players who can do that -- who figure out how to dominate the field demonstrating that they can truly think on their feet - will be better PVP players in our community than those who simply push the same button because they know it is always there for them to lean on. Yes, it is a challenge to many gamers' stale PVP manlihood. Its going to be interesting to see who steps up to the challenge.

    Tactical is using skills available in the heat of the moment to achieve victory.

    Pushing easy buttons is not tactical.
     
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  7. da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com

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    No... no.

    You are not forced to think tactically... you are forced to use the skills the computer decides to give you. You are forced to stare at the hotbar to see what skills get dealt to you and where they get dealt to. There is no thinking on your feet.. there is no getting involved in combat, you are at the mercy of the random generator. You mash buttons as they appear. It is whack-a-mole at it's finest.

    Staring at your hotbar to see what the computer decides to give you is not tactical.
     
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  8. rune_74

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    I guess I just don't see the combat system as hard...I sat down with it for the first time this release and within 20 minutes I had a new deck setup and running. I think as you level you will get used to the symbols for each attack and it shouldn't be that hard.

    I'm just not seeing the problems people seem to have figuring it out...it seemed pretty easy to me.
     
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  9. Sunswords

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    I'm just going to give my personal experience on this - I respectfully disagree with this observation. For me, the mechanics of a battle are such:
    1. Before battle - I prepare a deck, yes there is randomisation of what I will get in combat, but I know that my choices are narrowed down through proper preparation
      • The Deck created is a magic build, 5 x Death Touch, 5 x Flame Fist, 5 x Healing Touch, 3 x Fire Arrow, 3 x Death Ray
      • I have Healing Touch Locked on Slot 1 - because I know I don't want to have to wait at random to cast a heal when I need it most
      • I invest in the Focus Tree, expanding the number of cards in my hand, and affect the speed at which they arrive / move out of it
    2. In battle - My combat bar goes up, I start receiving my cards
      • I launch into battle with my weapon of choice, understanding that I am a magic build and in cloth armor, I should try to avoid getting injured too quickly
      • My deck starts building, if I get too many heal cards, I stack them into higher level glyphs, now I can afford to be reckless and get myself hurt a bit, I have more than one heal on hand
      • If I get combat spells, I can stack them and wait for a bigger hand to launch at one go, or I can use them as they come
    3. Option 1 - Battle goes badly
      • I discard combat cards and attempt to keep my distance to try and recover using heals, I use the terrain and kiting to try and stay alive
    4. Option 2- Battle goes well
      • I focus on combat cards and go for the kill, close range and keep the pressure up
    5. Option 3 - Battle goes badly / well, but I don't have the right hand
      • If you've not prepared the deck correctly, you will end up with the wrong cards most of the time, if you've prepared it right, it will tend to favour your chances of the right cards. You'll need to wait, but you will have your basic attack and locked glyphs to use.
    It's not whack-a-mole, it's adaptability (with some tactics). I agree it's viewed as being very random, that's because we've come from a long line of games and MMOs where everything is static. In both styles, static or dynamic, it is 'Thinking on your feet', because you will adjust to what you have!

    Edit: I understand the annoyance from players, especially PvP-ers. If you don't like the system, that's fair, but it would be helpful as a thought exercise and feedback to the Devs to say why it's not fun.

    The one thing I have noticed amongst many who don't like it, is that they reduce the argument to "Not fun", "Not good", but you have to say WHY you think so, and WHY it is a hindrance to you. I believe that with a proper tutorial and introduction, a fair amount of frustration will be alleviated.

    And it's perfectly valid to say "Doesn't suit my playstyle".
     
  10. Foobard

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    I stopped playing when the card system came out a few releases ago. Not fun. At all.

    I actually attempted to play this release, but my time was limited. My download ran all weekend. 3KBps on my 50MBps connection. Never finished. I assume the application paused my download when I locked the screen? Whatever, I didn't have time to troubleshoot.
     
  11. rune_74

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    Heh, it is kind of funny that right after that post someone does exactly what you wrote.
     
  12. da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com

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    I've given feedback in the last couple releases on the combat, why I don't like it, and what my suggestions would be to make it better.
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...y-card-combat-feedback-and-suggestions.13383/ - R8
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/r9-overall-feedback.14183/ -R9

    Also, other people that have been vocal, like Baron Drocis, have also given very in-depth feedback and point by point explanations of why they don't like the direction of the current system and what they would like to see out of it.
    for example for this release see the following:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/combat-and-magic-feedback-r10.14960/
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/decks-are-not-a-problem.15123/

    It's fine to disagree with my view, but don't try and tell me that people are not giving proper feedback about why they don't like the system.

    :)

    edit: another post about R10 where I give suggestions on what I would like to see instead https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...bat-and-magic-feedback-r10.14960/#post-246315
     
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  13. Poor game design

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    I'd just like to be clear. I don't want the card deck system out, I want it inclusive of roleplaying and I want it to support a more sophisticated and competitive function. I'm not opposed to randomness if it provides that, but the current system only has ONE tactic and ONE strategy. All of the decks come down to the same strategy (do more DPS than the other guy). While all of the players have the same tactic (Attack and Heal as much as possible). There's nothing more to the current system.

    I'm hoping that as combat evolves it will become a better tool for roleplaying, but so far I haven't heard anything that would suggest that will be the case.
     
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  14. da.n.ynu.tk.os.@gmail.com

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    Of course, I was simply pointing out that people like you and myself have been giving feedback that included our reasons for our observations :)

    was not trying to misrepresent you at all.
     
  15. Damian Killingsworth

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    If you don't like the deck system, you havent figured out how to properly wield it yet. Keep with it, you will see.
     
  16. StrangerDiamond

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    Plenty feedback here too... I even told a very easy way to implement a solution in a thread monitored by devs, it fell dead like so many threads with such amazing conversations they should be gold plated and put on a wall.

    I feel like a philosophy teacher petitioning to speak of the human condition and plato's cave to a board of directors in a religious school.
     
  17. StrangerDiamond

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    Oh and its so insulting when you guys say we can't "handle it properly" do you even realise what you write ?!

    I've been playing games since before I can talk... the idea is good, the implementation and whole rooting into a roleplaying game is inside out.

    It's not "out this world bad" its simply inside out and it makes you ask again...

    I think the most funny part is that I am just a regular nerd who likes to LARP, I'm not out here trying to troll or watch people fail. No I'm right up front and I'm giving my ideas because I LOATHE the idea this game could not attract the amazing niche players it deserves that I know and love. Because they're sophisticated, because they have the will to roleplay even if it seems "slow" and "nothing is happening" because they still read books like blade of the avatar and like the music to be made by passionate bards who also love the game.

    These people like integrity and coherence, you see a few here, but are they afraid to talk now ? I think yes... I think you guys are scaring them away. Coherence here means players like Francisco Drocis, you read his posts you will already guess what type of roleplayer he is, he's integral and honest.

    How many francisco drocis you see around ? Even funnier, how many "illuminated" freaks who claim to have casted the most powerful spell of all times, taught to him directly by xorinite ?

    *raises hand* oh thats right theres only one of each, not to diminish anyone's involvement but so many who looked to have a honest feedback capacity at first leave me puzzled, no offense guys I respect your choice to remain silent now.

    Everytime "the community" push people away ok I might go a bit nuts, but I could very well die soon and I SINCERELY think portalarium and King Gariott can take those mutated ideas I grabbed from my mentor at Origin and make something great out of it.

    I created my own situation, fully responsible for it... I'm trying to push someone who knows who he is out of the beaten path. Time to take your responsibilities... you witnessed firsthand what you created, yes its alive.

    Stop doubting yourself !
     
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  18. Duke Crachazz

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    All good arguments, but I think that not everything has to be reinvented... Like the wheel, it just works...
    The same with proven concepts like allowing players to simply build their own "decks", by allowing them to assign whatever skills they learned to whatever key on their keyboards... And then let them decide in which situation to use a particular skill.

    This whole "deck, card, hands, dealing" concept is just a huge turn off imo, and it reduces combat to some kind of whack a mole game. The strategy in a fight does not lay in planning ones deck beforehand, it lays in the situation itself...
    React however the player sees fit in different situations, and not waiting until the right "card" comes up.

    Also from a roleplaying perspective... Why can't my avatar use a particular skill he mastered at any time? Is there a good reason why he "forgets" most of the time how to use a skill, and can only use this skill in certain moments?


    ################################################################################################################################
    Which makes me take a very quick detour, and also rant about cooldown timers (The silliest thing in this whole system, right after decks,cards, hands :) ) Why have cooldowns? This really is a WoW like feature that nobody needs. Especially in PvP... You have your Focus/Mana, if that is empty you can not cast anymore so you better make it count... Why on top of that also cooldowns? It's another immersion killer imho.
    ################################################################################################################################


    I want to immerse myself in the fight, not watch some stupid hotbar until the right symbol comes up or I see that the cooldown timer reset itself, so I can finally hit some key from 1-10...

    Why not make it optional, the players who like this type of combat can use it, and otherwise give players who do not like it the ability to simply map skills to hotkeys in the options, and then let them turn off the "hotbar" for good, so they can immerse themselves in the game world without looking at a hotbar...


    And PS: I mean that you can assign as many skills/spells as you want to use / learned to your keyboard, not just a maximum of amount X... This would then really make combat diversified, because every player has every skill/spell the avatar learned at his/her disposal, and not just amount X at certain times.
     
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  19. Luznad

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    Yes.... But that was years ago... I Never played a game in the Last 5 years who had Problems with latency...
    I mean... (In switzerland) 50 - 100mb lines is standart...

    Sry, but if you can play battlefield with 64 Players without a Ping under 60... I dont really See the Problem...
     
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  20. Ao Soliwilos

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    I also detest cool down on skills, and if the whole goal here is to create something "new and innovative", then why would you choose to retain such a common/standard (immersion breaking) feature from other games? Using more natural means of restricting the amount of skills a player can use is infinitely better. I refer here to a mana/focus pool that you draw on, and the reagents, both of which are real resources the player has at their disposal and fits in with lore and roleplaying. It also let's the player more fully control his tactics in battle, and that in turn makes battle more interesting and removes this silly need you feel we have for forced randomisation of our skills. If you feel the players would be able to do too much without cool downs, then simply reduce the total mana/focus available and/or increase the cost of the individual skills. Make certain reagents rare and expensive, but please give us something that is different and fun. The current combat implementation in my view is mostly copying almost everyone else with it's core mechanics.

    Basing combat around cool downs, targeting and randomisation is not new and neither is it innovative. Almost everyone uses these mechanics. If you want to be new and innovative, then you need to break out of these standards entirely. Tabbed targeting is re-used time and time again, but something far less so is actual aiming without targeting. Actual aiming is also far more realistic and immersive, bringing you into the actual combat in a more tense and fun style. I have had a go at a few games with this type of mechanic and it is much, much more fun than targeting. Looking at technology like VR, some kind of implementation around actual aiming is going to become the new standard sooner or later. With VR people will be swinging their own arms trying hit their enemies while standing in something akin to the Virtuix with a Occulus Rift on their head and a Leap Motion reading their hand/arm movement. This is where the near future is. Perhaps they even have a fake sword in their own hands.

    You need to get away from targeting, cool downs and this level of randomisation. People always hate randomisation in games and give it all kinds of evil names, haven't you noticed? Crafting in a lot of MMO's are a prime example of this, or simply enchantment of items of various levels. When some people seem to succeed always, but a lot of people just keep failing and only because of random number generator, they get upset. I have witnessed this in many games. If players loses fights just because the random generator didn't give them a heal or any other skill when they wanted it, time and again, they will be upset. I think they already are. Lord British, DarkStarr, Lum, Tassilo and all of you at Portalarium: If you make the combat more real, then I believe all the things you want will come naturally.

    Have a nice day.
     
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