Craftable Items in the Add-On Store

@galdrmadhr If I could get hot pink blocks and also blocks that flash then I could properly annoy my neighbors.

That's the trouble with the online SotA, Buyer's seem to be intent on annoying game player's, it happens in all F2P,P2W,P2P games.
I thought we all wanted an old school game were players doing everything was the driving force.

 

@DarkStarr

Please do keep this up. I like things in the add-on store that are exactly the same as crafted so those of us who want to support you can without adding to the items that aren't able to be created in the game. Love it. I'll be buying at least 5 of these lutes... keep them the same as crafted ones imo!

 

Uh, @Violation... You realize he already said they were NOT going to be doing this, and have removed them from the Add-On Store, right?

 

I feel the pain you will suddenly feel...

 

You - Sir - seem to be greatly confused with what just happened

There, There. It's ok *pats on back*

 

Not confused... I just want to see the stuff that takes ZERO time from devs available on the add-on store that additionally is exactly the same... just as they changed their mind twice already I'd hope for a third time (they went to a crafted state once as a change, they went back away from it once as a change, maybe they'll go back to it... who knows)

 

as far as materials cost for craftable items. yep, needs to be balanced, not workedaround by the addon store.

i think part of the fix is when we have a stable economy once all the systems are in place and there are no more wipes, it'll certainly help things along. i know folks who love harvesting but hate crafting, so they'll certainly be selling the mats for profit.

at the same time, i think a serious look at the way nodes work may help. i'd suggest TRYING the way GuildWars2 does it, see if it is too much in the other direction.. personally, i do not think it will tip the scales in the wrong way when everything is said and done.

 

for them to meet their goal of "everything is crafted by players", it would have to be no more than refined materials, if not raw materials. i don't think it is a good idea though, at first. i think it will do some pretty bad things for a budding economy, but once the economy is tabalized, it may work well.

 

Let's do this for armor & weapons too while we're at it , let's kill any player economy please. We need one more reason to not play this game. This is DvC Devs vs Crafters

 

We don't have an economy right now... and even if we did it will all be cleared. It's pre-alpha where we're funding a game... if they stop selling them at release then there would be nearly zero effect to the game (the insulated starter reduction in requests due to people owning them would be overshadowed by the increase of new people who don't own them and provide time to have content that otherwise wouldn't be there at the first days of the game... music).

I don't see how anyone thinks there's an economy in the game right now... there simply isn't. The faucets and sinks are so messed up and the giveaways from the devs are still happening. I haven't received anything since R19 and I can tell you it's painful. I get people offering me handouts and I don't take them because I want to keep everything 100% farmed from and fed into and right now... it just hurts. To the point that it's not fun. I have to work at working to work at playing. If you start the game this way so many people will drop it's not funny. That's why I think there is going to be some huge issues with the forever unbreakable tools... one of the biggest sinks we have in the game for crafters and farmers will be durability loss. With tools that never break you'll have a HUGE edge on profit against those who don't have them making them nearly impossible to not own. THAT is the closest thing we have to an economic issue and it's been available FOREVER. I also think it's okay. It's okay because it's about 1/100 of the "pay to win" that GW2/SC and other Pay To Play (non sub but have an item mall) games are.

Once we have all the base level 1 items and all the faucets we can start to have an economy... until then it's just not possible to have. It is possible to talk about and I'm extremely willing to talk about it because it's near and dear to me. I just think that right now it's silly when I see things that have no value being sold for 27,000 gold because someone thinks they should make it impossible for the average player to playtest an item... without exploiting a flaw I don't see how anyone can have 27,000 spare gold and enjoy the game (I haven't played warriors yet but I think they're the closest ones to having that capacity because they have the least to pay for... just durability... no reagents or arrows... the others have it all )

To repeat: An economy needs to have a base... the US economy is driven by the dollar that's backed by gold and created by shag paper that is expensive and mints that are expensive. Our dollar is incredibly fake because we don't have enough gold to back the dollar anymore. What is the SotA economy backed by? What created the currency? Gold? If so how was it created? Right now it's not... it's just generated and it has no backing base value. Hence: no economy.

My two cents as a non economist and a long time gamer looking at successful gaming economies (singleplayer and multiplayer) over the last 20 years.

 

there... fixed that.

The goal was never meant to be that 100% of items were made by players... just that 100% of items were able to be made by players. And the best items are exclusively made by players. It's a marketing attempt to say "We're not trying to be pay-to-win" and they try very hard at not being pay to win... they really do. It's hard because we're talking about an impossible feat here. For them to have zero impact on the game and keep a no sub model where they get more money from current players they'd have to actually put a donate button up where you get NOTHING for the money you give them... everyone might act like saints now but I can almost assure you that 90%+ would NOT give without something received.

All the backer items are not made by players... all the add-on items are not... doesn't matter their color... reskinning and coloring them just takes dev time. It's just fluff to make people happy when it shouldn't be needed.

 

there IS an economy. last wipe it started to be the repair kits as the primary widget, due to the chests at the end of that quest in the tower east of ardoris... look at it like futures on wall street, same basic principle. next wipe, it'll quickly become something else.. once we stop having wipes, the official economy will come to fruition, and that is the one i was speaking of in my last post.


i do get your point of selling mats now in the addon store, for a temporary gain in funding, it is certainly something to think about. but it will not help them build the systems for the economy once the game is live. once they have the economic model fully in place in the game, i do not think sales of temp pre-launch-only items will be a bad thing, to make money..but not until that point. thats where i think the line should be drawn.

and the whole crafted vs craftable point you made. honestly i think it is just semantics for the same model basis we're both looking at/for.

 

Not trying to muddy the water up here. I love the add-on store and pledge rewards. I think the devs made the right choice to modify everything slightly so there's a difference, even if it's cosmetic (and yes even if it takes some development time - it's worth it for the integrity of the game).

But, here's a larger concern that I haven't seen addressed yet, and probably because the PVP player population is extremely small here (and the crafting population is extremely high here). Any item in the add-on store or pledge reward, is unlootable. That to me is a much bigger issue that needs a resolution that ensures PVP has meaningful risk vs. reward.

 

add-on stuff isn't nearly as good as crafted stuff now... I already brought this up to @BurningToad that it needs a wider separating and I think they're all aware of it. Basically think of the fly that annoys you... you just carry a fly swatter and feel like a god when it comes around... people in add-on/backer armor will be very weak compared to people in fully crafted, set bonus, enchanted/gemmed armor once all the systems and variants are in the game. I'm 99% sure it's a non issue. I haven't seen anyone say this to you so I hope that helps ease your mind a bit.

I disagree 100%... if people actually were using them as a required thing that would be true but I'd bet nearly 90% of people don't even use a repair kit... @Chris would know.

I don't agree with selling materials... I think selling items is way better. Selling materials would defeat the backer reward of the materials chest that you get when you back at a specific level. They shouldn't compete with backer rewards in the add-on store.

It's a big enough difference that I felt like I needed to say something. If you noticed I did just correct it but I said why so I could be sure we were both on the same page... glad to hear we are.


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Maybe this will help too...

The new lute changes colors so now it's an addon lute of prosperity... that takes 5 hours of dev time away from the team... it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the economy because I will now have a cooler lute than the next guy who got a crafted one AND I will not have a crafted one... see what I'm getting at here? It doesn't help the game it just hurts the development time. I'm done here I think I've said enough for the devs to get my standpoint and I think I've argued enough back and forth that any productive changes have been made. My goal isn't to make everyone the same as me just to be sure they understand me. I hope you all have.

Cheers!

 

Well, that's one way to approach the problem. But that means then that PVP folks that support the game get the shaft. I mean, maybe I'd like to wear some of that stuff in pvp someday? Maybe I don't want to be at a disadvantage because I like to look stylish?

What I'd rather see them do is allow pledge rewards and add-on store items to be modified in game so that they can be very good and used for pvp. Then you could either allow for the modifications to be lootable, which makes perfect sense to me. Or you could just bump up the gold to an amount that makes sense. If you're not wearing anything but purchased items, you would still have to pay gold as a ransom, and of course you couldn't buy your gold back.

To me, a combination of these things seems more appropriate. That way there's no advantage in pvp by using these items, but there's no real disadvantage either. This keep people buying the stuff, because it looks cool, but doesn't impact the integrity of pvp.

 

I actually talked to him about making the backer items into a 5 charges item that can change other gear to look like that gear so you can setup a few sets of gear to look like your backer armor... not sure if they'll go that route or not. Maybe just do a full set of gear like they do now and have it be all non backer looking stuff then a single charge transmogrifier so people can do that... I like the idea of progressing through gear though so a couple charges would be nice but then that also means they could replicate the look to more armor so ... anyway, yeah... I suggested that too. I think that's a system change so it's probably less likely to happen.

 

If you cant Loot it, then it should be bound to account. If you can sell it or give it away it you have to be able to loot it.

But the Buyers want it always to just suit them. So no-one can loot it, but they can sell it ( some for excessive Real Money mark ups ), the effects on any part of the game or other players through this is irrelevant to them.

 

Yes, you're correct in your assessment.

The problem here is that PVP and Loot are still being designed, so people that gave money in the kickstarter or people that give money now, probably should understand if something like I don't know a $350 air ship, can be looted from them the moment they step foot on pvp soil. (which it CAN'T - this was just a hypothetical example of why it's not like that) That would be something you'd want to take into consideration. Especially since the development team has been saying for years that pledge and add-on store items absolutely would never be lootable - which I think is the right decision.

But that does leave us with a sizable gap in pvp risk vs. reward.

 

Not to mention an equality between in-game competition and the meta-game. I'm sorry but I really dislike the excuse, "well I don't have time to play a game so I want the end rewards instantly by trading it for my real money that I "sacrifice"". That wipes the floor with someone who cannot pay the same monetary price or refuses too. The contribution of money doesn't equate to time. For example: Player A spends all day building a castle worth 1 million. Player B doesn't have all day to build his castle. Player B spends $x and instantly places his castle. If player A loses his castle, it's going to take all day to replace it. Player B will replace his instantly. If Player B attacks Player A's castle, he has literally done so with an unparalleled in-game contribution. Player A can attack player B as much as he likes, but what's the point when Player B will instantly replace it?

Now I know this siege analogy isn't directly applicable to this game, but the essence of time vs money vs in-game skill/time-management is very applicable. Originally it was cosmetic items, or items players would be able to easily acquire in-game. I get it. Star Citizen did the same thing. Now they too are starting to cross the line into simply letting "whales" as someone eloquently put it, throw wads of cash at the shop to play the game for them.

This was supposed to be a game that hearkened back to the traditional times and game play of yore. Sometimes I wish it was actually developed and presented back in the days of yore. Unfortunately none of that stopped it from adopting a cash shop and all the other issues of modern gaming and bloating beyond proportion... :/

 

Time = Money
Money = Time

Is it any more fair that someone has more time than someone else? No.

So how do we make a game where neither time nor money are a factor, and the game still gets funded and is fun?