Crafting: Not fun

That sounds like a great idea dermott. I was also not enjoying the guess system.
I also believe the NPC next to the stations should take your through your first recipe, including saying exactly 1 ore + ...

 

I'm not enjoying the guess system either. ... This thing sooner or latter would be a list you simply go an search on the internet. I want to see immersion. I don't want to go outside the game and browse for information to be able to play it. I think the biggest issue for me is to know what the tools and materials are for, and for that I think the game needs to implement some kind of journal to keep track of things that explain tools, ingredients, and their uses when you discover them of get information about them. Of course this is early development and a lot has to be made still, but... the fun factor needs to skyrocket to this thing to be successful because I know one of the main core things this game is aiming is this feature. Even LB has said that in many occasions. The big red X is a great idea for me, a long Ultima 7 player . I love the messy bags Ultima 7 style, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the items scale. Also I would like to hear some crafting sounds when I press "craft".

 

Yeah I like that idea, if it can't be used for any recipes on that table you shouldn't be able to place it, giving you a message saying that has no use here or something. Some people would complain it's unrealistic and "immersion breaking" But I think it's one of those game play elements we just need a little help.

So far I've found most of the recipes to be quite logical, like having the stag head knowing if I want to mount it i'd need some wood boards, piece of cake. The more I use the system the more sense it makes to me too.

FF11 and FF14 had no sense to their recipes, you needed all sorts of odds and ends to make things, I had to use wiki's, this system I haven't felt I have to.

 

The reason I like this idea is because while they've given us a good framework for discovery, they haven't given us the foundation to stand on. That is, we don't know enough about what each tool does, what it's purpose, etc. This is something you expect from a manual -- and is actually something I hope they do put in the real manual. The foundation they've provided us for R2 is not there. They only gave us a couple recipes buried within the instructions. If you know the tool's purpose and how it operates on ingredients, the better you are at discovery. As such, this idea facilitates discovery and doesn't allow you to use tools or ingredients where they are not applicable. Once players understand better the applicability, they'll get better at discovery.

In addition, they need to solve the usability issues with the crafting UI -- especially with stacks and visually showing quantity when on the crafting table since recipes require exact amounts, which I'm currently wondering if that's a good thing or not. Other games simply don't care about exact amounts and give you the leftover. This will work later when they implement multiple production. Whatever's not used is left behind on the table.

 

I quite like it the way it is now *not easy*

So far I'm loving it, I hope it saves my recipe log book

 

Yea im on the same ride kinda not liken the random ness, would like some sort of Direction as far as what im able to make, not a guessing game
but that's just my op in it.

 

I thought about this too, but it occurred to me that at some point in the future said not-placeable item may be used a in recipe on that table. If you previously could not place it, you may think that it will never be placeable and thus never try placing it again. If it is placeable, but not currently a part of an existing recipe, you can always try various combinations using that it on that table after a patch or update - whenever new recipes may be added.

 

I like 'not easy' as well, but this is more like 'not fun'

I'm a big fan of being in control of what I am crafting. This is more of a trial and error thing, which doesn't seem suited to a game of this quality.

 

Could you give an example of fun crafting?

 

Vanguard: You are in control of the project from start to finish. There are 3-4 phases in each step depending on the complexity of the item. There can be dusts you add to add enhancements etc...Better quality like for example on bags, makes them hold additional stuffs...Quite cool! (BTW Vanguard is shutting down In July )
FFXIV: You have controls to start with that make it possible to complete the project in a given time...As you level you gain new abilities to improve your project and actually get to manipulate success because the new controls you get make it so you can succeed in new and innovative ways.
EQ2: You again have steps in completing the project with varied quality. Each craft has varying control buttons to make the project succeed. Also, you can go back and experiment on items you have crafted to improve them and or make them unique in ways ie adding cosmetic effects etc...

Those are my favorites. I didn't like WoW crafting at all as it was just click crafting...Boring...
Neverwinter crafting...very boring...6 hour time frames to finish things...just click some buttons and let it go all night ewww...

Fallen Earth had interesting ideas in crafting...In that game you could build an entire car. You would have to research the receipe to build (which took quite a bit of time) and you had to make each piece which took a lot of time as well, but you could actually have the work being done while you were offline, so it was less drugery...but still...a bit of a time sink...hehe...Not my favorite, but I did enjoy some aspects of it like the variety of things you could build and sell for a reasonable profit.

 

I like the idea of recipes & experimenting. But the whole process is so tedious, I have real issues with that. A wiki will eventually exist with the recipes, so that won't always be an issue, but the actual separating, clicking, placing each item over & over, UGH! I know it would prevent macroing, but that's way over the top.

I said this in another thread on the same topic, but I do appreciate the work the devs put into this. The graphics, recipes, etc. It's just way too slow going. I think you should be able to put multiple items in a stack, with all components on the table in a recipe, and be able to continue crafting instead of this pack to table constantly.

 

I agree, the process as it stands is tedious as well...but it's probably going to be improved later on...I am still hoping they will make it more than just drag an item to the table, wait the 'craft' button to light up and click.

 

Lord Baldrith, I read Vanguard and "having control" and "Phases" but that doesn't mean anything to me. What's an example of "control" and "phases" where it's more fun?

 

Control: Able to give the project higher quality by the things you do...along with success or failure from such actions...
Phases: Each phase of the crafting in these games needed to be completed to move onto the next phase... for example the phase of choosing what materials/components you would be using (bringing to the table) would be phase 1...The shaping of the item could be phase 2...finishing/painting/varnishing etc...could be phase 3...And finalizing the project could be phase 4.

Of course, simple items like an ingot have less phases...Take much less time to create. Complex items would take more time to complete as far as the project steps.

Building items in Vanguard wasn't tedious because you were really actively building the project, and it was quite stressful at times...much in the same was as combat could be stressful...trying to survive Yipee! hehe

 

Ok, so it sounds like you want more of a "mini-game" type environment for each phase?

The fact that gathering wasn't a part of R2, I think that should be considered. This would've given people a lot more "to do" in the world related to crafting. But still I agree, the actual act of crafting is very repetitive. I think you have a point there.

 

A mini-game is kind of what it would be...but all the phases are done in 1 step. I am just throwing the Vanguard comparison because that was a really well designed crafting system and I doubt alot of people have even played that game...and honestly I never maxed my crafting out in that game because it literally took days to raise each level of your crafting in that game...(which isn't bad to me)...but I also had 6 alts of crafters to make sure I could supply each of my crafters with the needed mats...Plus you could build boats and houses in Vanguard...It was just an awesome game for crafters...I won't get into fishing but wow that was complex and fun too hehe

I actually spend more time crafting than combat in the games I play. But it depends on the game and how 'fun' the combat is.

I also forgot to mention that there were really fun crafting quests in Vanguard which yielded you crafting/harvesting gear and tools to improve your crafting projects...

Harvesting to me is a separate thing. It is a function needed to make crafting work, but you can simply buy harvested materials if you want...I prefer to do my own harvesting as well.

 

I agree that the part that we have seen of crafting is not overly fun. But then again, we haven't seen the whole cycle of adventuring out in the woods, chopping trees, killing the critters in those scenes, and then going back to town for a relaxing time at the crafting station. This part of the crafting cycle is the "unwinding" part, so it could be more fun if the gathering part is fun.

I like the idea of experimenting to learn recipes, rather than be given 5 recipes at each "level up".
I don't like the currents state where I have to drag all the ingredients on to the table when I already know the recipe. I would like the recipe book to allow me to double click a recipe, and all the items are put on the table for me. Mass production will be tedious and boring otherwise.

I would like some interaction while crafting that makes me feel like I'm playing a game, rather than just dragging, dropping, and clicking "craft" mindlessly. I would love to see each crafting station have a "mini game" of sorts that would grant us a skill check bonus or penalty based on how well we performed at the mini game. I liked Oblivion's lockpicking mini game for instance.

In an ideal crafting game, there would be as much as thought and skill needed by the player to craft a superior weapon as there is for a player to kill a dragon. The SotA team doesn't want combat to be a repetition of hitting your dps rotation, so lets extend that to crafting somehow so that its not just drag&drop, drag&drop, etc.

 

I loved the lock picking in Oblivion as well...and also Gothic...

I hope we will have mini-game type crafting...but perhaps it's too late to ask for that...I'm just hoping it will be something that is fun rather than simplistic. I mean sure it would be complex at first before all the Wiki's were in tact telling us what ingrediants make what...crafting should have some discovery involved...but I would think you should discover by your skill in crafting, not by dumb luck (guessing)...

 

Ok I'm going to take this a step further, Lord Baldrith.

Current Crafting Example: Put random items on a crafting table and see if the crafting button lights up. Or, put items from a recipe on a crafting table and hit the crafting button. That's about it.

New Crafting Idea Example: Put random items on a table, and physically work with them. So if you have an ore ingot on the table, you might hit it with a hammer. 1 hit might be not enough, 3 hits might be too much! The point being that this would be more dynamic than just putting everything on a table and hitting a button over and over again.

 

Very good thoughts!

Determining how to shape/hit/cut/add/sew/polish etc an item would definately be adding interatction and controllable variables to crafting that would add to the 'fun' factor. That's what I'm looking for here, something that makes crafting fun, not just drag and click...We are 2014 now? Yep, so let's have some technology here that goes beyond what we have seen in the old games.

I am the first to admit I did enjoy UO crafting for convience...but really it was pioneering crafting and a great start! Now we are to the stage where crafting can be so much more. I would hope 'our' new game will have exciting, fun and challenging crafting. Generally crafting lovers do not mind working to build their items...(speaking for myself and other crafters I know)...This is part of what makes crafting fun is that you did accomplish building something new, or difficult to craft. These things are fun. Guessing/or find a receipe that tells me what to drag to the table, to me, is not fun.