Crafting: Not fun

Since the days of the original Ultima Online (which I have the pin and cloth map still) there has always been crafting of some sorts. It is fun to "create" things that you can call your own. Several MMOs and RPGs that I have played did crafting in varying ways.

SotA crafting brought back memories from Asheron's Call in the early days (now you just read a scroll). You had to use a Scarab / taper / herb / talisman in a combination using the in-game slot machine to find out if it creates a spell you can cast. Later (like Stile's Excel spreadsheet) people were able to post complete lists of all the spells in the game and the appropriate components needed to learn them (including skill level). It's fun for a little while, until every crafted item has been discovered and posted, then it's just "I need this made, look it up, get the materials, and craft." The fun will be for the founder players discovering these things for the first time.

WoW requires machines to craft weapons / armor, but consumables did not need a machine. Potions could be made "on the fly" in the field. There were charts for those crafting as well, make 10 of those, 20 of those 3 of that, 5 of this... to get to the next tier.

Istaria (Horizons, and yes I still have an account) had one of the more interesting crafting setups. It was almost identical to SotA, each craft had 2 machines to make your final product, such as a loom for turning plants into thread and into cloth, and a cutting table to make the cloth into a finished product. You could add "techniques and dyes" to your items to make them a different color, or to increase attributes or health, etc. I got spoiled with this crafting system as the crafting window would allow you to make as many units as you had pack inventory, with an auto-deconstruct button to revert your creations back to raw materials. Rinse wash repeat.

Star Wars had the most simplest crafting that only required raw materials, crafting items at higher levels was a cinch, and best of all, you had your companions do it for you.

I think with a little work, SotA will be a fun and exciting crafting system.

 

I snipped just to save space. Agreed, I hate researching wikis also and will only do so if I'm stumped like with this in SotA. I like the idea of basic recipes, but perhaps each crafting vendor would require you to talk to them prior to using their equipment (tables), and then give you one or two tips to get started. This way it could add the recipes by talking to them and making it a bit more interactive like that. Not saying they should be handing out recipes, but only one or two basic ones as a result from conversation.

Then they might be able to give you clues where to find others, and it could be a kind of an ongoing quest.

I also think that if they were to make a wiki virtually useless unless you took certain steps (like quest progress) to unlock the feature, it could make it more engaging. Another hoop to jump to make it worthwhile. Just standing there experimenting could be one strategy but another would be like a questline to unlock ability, in addition to skill level. At least I'd enjoy that. Others might not.

 

Further thoughts have my Crafting Feedback Outline expanded to this:

• NPCs should give some basic recipes in their conversations, particularly ones involved in the specific craft. If your skill level is high enough, then that could open further recipes from them (gives reason to return to "earlier" towns)
• Recipes should also be found in books, some of which would be found in the shops accordingly, others found in abandoned and more difficult locations (these could be mid to higher level based on locations found)
• Recipes should remain like they are now... findable and have to manually create them to be added to the Recipe Book. There should NEVER be a "double click to permanently learn X" item for recipes.
• Once a recipe is in the Recipe Book, it should be clickable in the book and the necessary components moved to the Table accordingly to be made. If you do not have the materials, the recipe would be slightly dulled and non-clickable. Anything like Tools or Molds on the table already would be accounted for so you would not have to move it/them back and forth.
• Batch Processing (making more than 1 item at a time, such as a stack of ingots) should be possible if it can be done without overlapping other recipes (maybe through the Recipe Book?)
• The current Trial system should remain in place, skill level should be able to prevent someone from making Epic Armor of Godhood on their first attempt as a Level 1 character, however, there SHOULD be some sort of message that "This might make something, if I had more knowledge" and an entry of "Something" with the recipe would be added to the Recipe Book.
• Limit crafting animations to the same second or two that the crafting sound uses.
• For Batch Processing (above), simply have the items made immediately instead of waiting out a timer for each individual item (WoW). Sure it's not as "realistic" without that extra waiting time, but it IS easier on the player.
• Finished Product should move to one of the player's containers (maybe allow the player to set this in Options?)

 

my be a good idea not to complicate the process of crafting mini-games. Opening recipes yourself a great thing! and it would be nice if things depended on the quality of material and skill.I do like the sword. suppose I need a handle made of metal, leather and blade sharpening. the quality of the metal handle will depend on the weight and speed, respectively weapons.from quality leather for sharpening depends on the sharpness of the sword, respectively Done. and it transpired bc empirically. ie standard recipes, but changing components.

 

I think what ever tool you are using should be equipped on your character, not placed on a table. If you tell someone you're building a chair, they should see you holding a hammer. Making a potion, they should see you holding a mortar and pestle. If you're weaving cloth, you should not be holding a sword and shield.

As far as macroing or grinding out large quantities of things, why on earth should you have to?! If you have to macro or make 5000 chairs to gain skill, the game mechanics need some review. Every item you make should have value. If 1000 players each make 5000 chairs, what value can they possibly have? We are not factories, we are craftsmen. The first time I make something, it will take me a long time and it will not be of the best quality. Subsequent items are made faster and better, because you get a routine down and a feel for the materials and tools. But eventually I reach a point where I can make this thing in my sleep, and it doesn't get any faster or better in quality.

I'm not crazy about having to put exact amounts of materials on a crafting table. That's pretty tedious, unless you're only making the one thing. If I had to do that 5000 times to gain skill, I'd probably slit my wrists. Well, ok, I'd just stop playing the game and tell all my friends how awful crafting is and not to bother.

I do agree that the craft tools and materials should have some kind of hint text so players know what they're for. I have real life woodworking and sewing experience, so those tools and materials might be obvious to me, but not to people that have no previous experience.

I typically play with 2 monitors - one for the game client, and one with a wiki open to look stuff up. I don't have the time or patience for obfuscated clues on how to do or find things in a game when my play time is limited.

I also want to mention here that a huge irritant in Ultima Online was the finished products we crafted sold to vendors for less than the sum value of their raw materials, and I hope that will not be the case in Shroud of the Avatar. Vendors should not sell craftable items for less than cost of making them. The time we spend crafting should have significant value. A sewing kit requiring 2 ingots to craft should not be sold by vendors for the price of 1 ingot.

I also feel that NPC vendors should be a last resort desperation option to buy anything at all. We should be able to sell our crafted items to other players for less than NPC's charge and still make a decent profit. Say it costs me 5 silver to make a cure potion (reagent, bottle, tool repair cost). A vendor should give me at least 15 silver for it, and then quadruple the price if a player buys it from him (60 silver). I can sell my potion to another player for say 30 silver, and I've still turned a nice profit. If the potion got into the loot table, and a player gets it as loot, he can get that same 15 silver when he sells it to a vendor.

ALL crafted items need to have value, or it's just a hobby. Crafting and craftsmen should be a vital and valued part of the game, not an after-thought or fun little mini-game. Vendors should be an expensive convenience. A very expensive convenience.

 

I agree your hands should be unequipped but as for tools, what happens when you need a hammer and a chisel. The system now takes from pack so they're on the right track. I still love the idea of discovery, it would be an idea perhaps for the first person to discover a recipe would get their name in everyone's recipe book, "discovered be xxx" in small text

*edit* furthermore, npcs should not sell anything that a player has not first sold them, and only that amount with the exception of bland fruits or unimportant little things. Sell an npc a 100 stack of blackrock ingot, that type on npc will now sell 100 blackrock ingots in that town, till they are all sold, they would pay little for them & charge a small fortune but if player vendors don't have, npc could be an expensive option.

 

Ya, I remember that from Vanguard...there was so much you could create with the different enhancement dusts and materials that you'd get discovery announcements nearly every time you crafted. I like the idea of it being on the receipe in small letters, discovered by so and so ya...good idea!

 

Still not enjoying crafting. They have improved some of the tedium, but not implemented much interaction. I will post a sample of interactive crafting IE Vanguard, the champion of crafting design in my book.



I hope we can see some more control over the process of creating items. Just laying items on the table the clicking 'Craft' is pretty basic. I would expect more of our game.

 

Yes I too loved Vanguard crafting. Very interactive. Hopefully we'll see some future add-on to the current system that will bring more life to it. I do like the improvements and appreciate the developers hard work so far, but I would still love to see a little more added to the system.

 

That looked like far to much work in that video, for enhancing an item maybe but not as much as what went on there.
*However thinking on it a bit, perhaps the advanced crafting stations could be more involved & there fore also craft superior items from base items + enhancement items or base items + process, I may learn to like it if it's not to elaborate , I just know I wouldn't want to do that to every time for when I'm training

I would like the crafting station respond to what I'm doing with fire & smoke from the smelting station, spinning spinning wheel, turning saw blade, etc. If someone is standing on it they would suffer hitpoints

 

Actually, this was just building the item. I was kinda snickering at the guy because he could have gotten more quality than he did. In Vanugard your project started out at 'D' quality and was considered a failure until you added some quality actions...in the meantime you had to get the project done before you ran out of crafting actions. It really wasn't hard, but it was immersive. There were conditions that came up sometimes and you'd have to fix those during the project as well.

I just hope they consider making crafting more than GUESS. Wiki is there to make using your brain no needed. Making crafting challenging and fun is important to an old dedicated crafter such as myself.

 

lol yes the conditions were cute, your character would whine because he cut his finger or started a fire. Well hopefully you put band aids and water on your table.

 

Don't worry Lord Baldrith, you ill be able to purchase all your needed items from my vendors

 

No need, I will still craft. I crafted in WoW for 3 years so I can tolerate anything.

 

Personally I really enjoyed the crafting system.

 

As a die hard crafter, I didn't

 

I rather enjoyed the new crafting Technics, finding the recipes on my own by experimenting was more of a challenge that i enjoyed. And when i did successfully find a working combination, i felt like i accomplished something. Yes there are some slight aspects that are in need of work, but this is only the alpha r3 and not the finished product. Hopefully there will be a ton of other items to craft and thrill of finding them on your own. If you want an easy too play and craft game, go play wow.

 

I don't want an easy to play craft game. That is my point, it's too easy ...

 

My apologies Lord Baldrith, i misinterpreted your post, please forgive my hast. And after reading your later post i agree with you. I was rather annoyed in the fact you could not craft more then one item at time. I just enjoyed the discovery part of the whole crafting process.

 

No worries...Just hoping dev's look in on our thoughts and give crafting some more depth and love...I have much trust in the team and sure everything will get much better once we hit release. I'm kinda picky with crafting because I have played some fun crafting games...I really enjoy being a part of my project more than just clicking done...now that was WoW haha...