Crime Doesn't Pay

So I took a few of the ideas floating around on the criminal system and put them through a flow chart.
Yes I posted this in the PVP section as this would only work in a UO mode like Felucca.
True we may not get that but we can only hope.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/179787_280477652097104_1662252916_n.jpg

1. To find out where some of these ideas came from see these threads:
On the topic of laws and jails; and ways to get away with crimes - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-jails-and-ways-to-get-away-with-crimes.1232/
Functioning Prisons - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/functioning-prisons.1251/
Bounty Hunter System - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/bounty-hunter-system-dev-replied.942/

I think thats the main threads.
Plus a few other points...

1. The Petition idea comes from here:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=cllFLsU5KZE&t=29m18s
I think this works good for crimes where game mechanics fail to know who the guilty party is.
Examples would area of effect spells or putting walls around someone to trap or kill them.
Plus you could Petition your king for many other things.

2. The idea of criminals living outside town comes from - How realism makes life hard for PKs
You won't find that in the chart but I was trying to include some systems to make it hard for PK's to go into the city. At least for the area he committed the crimes in.

3. Ideas for stealth and tracking came from Dom John's Dual-Scale Map
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFwjendP2IU&t=4m22s
Those ideas could be expanded on more.

4. The Idea of Public Humiliation comes from here:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AnEe28cuIY

Yea it may seem complicated but the reason for many of the steps were to try include the different systems of gameplay.
I'm sure it can be done much simpler.

For some guard ideas:
Enhanced Guards - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/enhanced-guards.2377/#post-30812
Hire system a way to protect PvE players and have PKs and Anti PKs get in! - https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...layers-and-have-pks-and-anti-pks-get-in.2087/

 

Sorry if im a bit straightforward and mean here, not to downplay your ideas, but:
1) This is hard on a phasing mmo scale with thousands(?) of players for various reasons. If you're talking about crimes and whatnot; in medieval times it was largely based upon witnesses and the king decides. Witnesses are basic and easy to implement, and a player or an npc could report a crime, and based on evidence and history of the player, would be found guilty.

2) Everyone likes to engage in PVP every now and then, and the fact that PVP is optional basically means there's no such thing as murder, as by making yourself pvp you're inviting people to come and contest you. That being said; if I paid for lord city house rank; I want a lord city house. You already serve your time in wahtever jail system they have.

3) This I'm okay with, but I'm not sure where you got stealth from that video, though I understand tracking.

4) No one wants to sit and watch there character get pelted with tomatoes for a couple minutes; either way its entertaining or boring, and doesn't "punish" the player while making it interesting or serving a purpose. That and it wastes our oh so precious tomatoes.

 

1. yea I'm good for changing up things on how the King decides crimes.
2. PVP could be just like UO - Felucca/Trammel except both would be playing in the same world and neither side would see each other.
3. The tracking and stealth come in around 4:25.
I fixed the youtube links, when embedded the url changes somehow.

4. The tomato thing could just him leaving the city through the gate with people above throwing things to show they don't want him back.
And that is just one of many things that could be done. It doesn't have to be that. Just one of the examples.
The punishment thing definitely needs some work.

 

I've said this in every one of those threads that the justice process ought to be fun for the criminal in some way. It has to be fun to avoid law enforcement, and the penalty for their crimes (thrown in dungeon or something) should have it's own cool features for the PK.

Besides the PK is playing the game according to the way it was designed. Why penalize them for their play-style?

 

All I'm saying for the punishment process is that you resurrect somewhere after being caught by the bounty hunter.
I just listed some of the ideas given.

The reason he is being punished is.
1. he committed criminal acts
2. he was caught

You may be in a place like Mos Eisley where you can get away with murder.
But if a bounty hunter is sent to take you back to authorities there still may be some punishment.

If you want PVP with no punishment I'm sure you will be able to join in on some guild or faction wars.
But to kill some random person and take their stuff I think should be criminal.
Just because I go to a place like Mos Eisley does not mean I want to die.

 

There was Buccaneer's Den for people like PKs and Pirates. I like what you posted. I just want it to remain fun for these guys so I added that early in this thread because many of the other threads want to punish PKs, and I like PKs because they are players like the rest of us.

I think it would be cool if they get caught that they be tried in court where they can make their defence. Justice is a virtue. If they are guilty of a crime worthy of imprisonment then let them be placed at the bottom level of one of the nearby dungeons, and let them find away around (or through) the guards and get their stuff back. Then they can escape by travelling up the dungeon to leave, and maybe pick up some treasure, and an escapee character title as well.

 

One issue I have with prisons is that I think they would be historically inaccurate. Prisons, or more accurately dungeons, were not used to confine lawbreakers. Confinement was expensive, and if you were confined, it was typically while awaiting payment of a ransom, or prior to execution. Otherwise, no one wanted to waste money on food for prisoners.

If you broke a law, there were other punishments, such as banishment or mutilation. For example, if a baker shorted customers on the size of bread loaves, they weren't thrown in jail. Instead, they'd have a hand cut off, which gave rise to the term 'baker's dozen'. To avoid being accused of cheating customers, if you ordered a dozen loaves, the baker would give you 13.

So the idea of throwing thieves in jail is something that wouldn't be done. They'd either be executed, or crippled, but not given 'three hots and a cot.'

So, who's up for cutting off an arm as a punishment, which would last until your next resurrection?

 

yeah but we are immortal (death isn't permanent), and from what I gather we don't need food except for buffs. Just sayin.

 

That's true, but my comment about chopping off an arm wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I think punishment for crimes should be death, which would result in the loss of all gear. The person can then res, but at an obvious disadvantage. This is not only more simple, but it is historically more accurate. After all, they used to hang people for all sorts of things that today we would consider trivial crimes.

 

@Owain, I really like your idea of the cut off arm/hand, although seemingly quite harsh, is an excellent thing! There should be many different variations of this whereas a theif would get a hand cut off, or a murderer would lose an eye and receive a stat loss or dps loss. There is much to consider in that example that could provide quite an enjoyable experience, even if the person who does wrong in-game loses an arm. I would be one of those guys running around with no arms singing a depressing song lol.

 

Willst thou come quietly?

 

PKing is going to be a blast in Shroud of the Avatar

 

Basically what I see 'guards' doing is basically being able to
1) respond to any area within city areas very quickly
2) able to overwhelm you
3) basically disable you as a player for a minute or so (like respawning) and also then have to deal with things like a good/bad system which may have way more implications with things like available content/bounty system/titles/quests/etc...

 

Maybe instead of instakill teleporting guards, as in UO, the town Tesla coil sends out a bolt of lightning, and fries you on the spot, destroying your gear in the process.

 

Man that is complicated, haha. Ruler input? Yeah, I dont see that ever happening.

My wishes are simple;
I really hope there are thieves who can steal items from player's knapsacks. And dastardly fellows who lurk in the woods looking to take your gold - or life if need be. And lets not forget the knights in shining armor who seek out both evildoers, or perhaps the shady, leather clad assassins one can hire to get their revenge.


I think the system needs to be simple first and foremost;
A reputation and eye-for-an-eye system would work well here... There should be no ambiguity as to what happens to you if you steal from someone (flagged criminal till death?) or kill someone else (flagged murderer for an hour of playtime?). That flow chart while thorough, would be a nightmare for players trying to figure out what happens if they do something, or what they already did.

 

It looks more complicated then it is.
Many crimes would be as simple as commit crime - bounty placed - hunted down and killed - possible punishment
Game mechanics that can't determine crimes goes through a King or town ruler to figure out what to do with you.

 

@Bayien, I think pretty much everything you replied with is way off base for this type of game.

This isn't a historically accurate version of our medieval times. This is a land that embraces the eight virtues, where anyone who commits actions that are un-virtuous faces real consequences, whether there were witnesses doesn't really come into play.

The fact there is optional PVP does not mean there is no such thing as murder. This game and the ones before it have always embraced simulation to help roleplayers immerse themselves into the story. That is why PVP is allowed, because in the real world, you can kill someone and must face the consequences of that act, therefore it makes sense to be able to do the same in the game. That doesn't mean there is no murder in real life, and this game is trying to simulate that experience for you. That is why there is PVP. Also, if you own a house in town, but have a warrant for your arrest within that same city, city officials will come knocking at your door! So if you don't want to get caught, you'll have to live outside of town for a while, otherwise you can surrender, accept your punishment/jail time, then go back to your house.

If you listen to the first ten seconds of his link, the narrator of the video talk about tracking, then explains that the stealth skill acts as the exact opposite.. Click it again!

Of course no one wants to watch their character get punished! That's why it's a punishment!! All of this is designed to be in-game deterrents to prevent the PK experience from being too rewarding. If it's more rewarding to live by the rules, then the majority of players should be able to play the game the way it's meant to be played, allowing anyone to try their hand at being un-virtuous and see what it's like to become a criminal on the wrong side of the law, and of course, experience the consequences that follow when they get caught.

The whole idea is fun and exciting gameplay for everyone. At the same time it remains emmersive, encouraging story, character interaction, and interaction with the game world itself.

Great info jondavis! This is very close to how I envisioned things should play out. And like you say, no one needs to memorize the flow chart. Everything in-game is very reactive to your actions, so as long as you're thinking virtuously as you play, you'll know 'this is going to cause trouble'.. and soon the bounty is set and you're on the run. Perfect.

 

I don't agree with much of what you said, but let's deal with the murder issue. Just because you are flagged for PvP doesn't give somebody a right to attack you without cause. If you are in warring guilds/factions then there is a legal reason to fight. If somebody attacks you without cause and you haven't committed a crime to flag you as a legal target then the person is a murderer if he kills you. If he doesn't kill you he should be flagged as a criminal so others can attack him legally for a time.

That's how it was handled in UO, and I believe those rules are a good baseline for PvP. That means murder is possible.

 

No disagreement here. The criminal system and the consensual PVP system are two unique systems that can exist harmoniously within the same framework.

It's similar to soldiers in wartime in the real world. Being a soldier doesn't give you the right to kill civilians, that's still a crime. But soldier to soldier killing on the designated battlefield will certainly not be considered a crime. And a civilian killing a soldier certainly is still a crime.

 

@ Miracle Dragon
"This type of game" is a relative statement. From what we've seen it tries to make the experience thrilling and immersive for everyone, rather then making it "Real life simulator 2013".



1) What I meant by that statement was that if you and me are out in the middle of the woods; and I shoot you in the face with a crossbow with no one around, why should I be penalized? No one saw me commit the murder, no one can link the murder back to me, therefore there are no witnesses, therefore no crime. If I dislike the way you looked at me in the pub and pull a dagger on you in plain sight of course im going to get caught. The notion that if you commit a crime you're instantly convicted gets rid of the excitement, thrill, and therefore payoff of crime.

2) There's still murder; but what I mean is that you dont exactly kill players who are un-wanting of the experience.
"In the real world..." - I hate when people say this. The reason I'm playing a roleplaying game is to escape my pointless boring day-to-day life. And the technology difference between this "age" and the real world is so immense its almost irrelevant. It is thought that Jack the Ripper killed and gutted atleast 10 (going all the way up to 20, on some accounts) people in the back streets of London recklessly before he was caught. And yes; you should probably not stay in town if you have a warrant because... well.... duh. But that doesn't mean they seize the deed. The thing about pvp (and therefore looting) being optional is that there is no reason to "punish" pks in a way that makes you look at the screen and go "I dont want to play a criminal anymore." Granted; crime should not be rewarding, not in the slightest; but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fun or immersive.

3)
It doesn't really go into depth on that; but I had no qualms with this part. I was just expecting a broader idea.

4)
" play the game the way it's meant to be played." You're kidding? If they didnt want you to try and challenge the virtues or beliefs, why would they implement that!?
"The whole idea is fun and exciting gameplay for everyone. At the same time it remains immersive, encouraging story, character interaction, and interaction with the game world itself."
You contradict yourself here. You want to penalize players who, as myself, would like to disobey authority that, in your analogy, makes the game grueling and boring for them. There are plenty of ways to punish someone and make it entertaining, thrilling, immersive, or even downright hilarious. Hell, if my character had to get pelted with tomatoes for awhile I know all I would do is tab out and watch a video or something.

This is a role playing game. And I intend to play the roles and act out what I cant in real life. Otherwise why would I play the game when I can actually do it? If you punish people for doing what they find enjoyable, it becomes more the subject of "Thats no fun, no one is going to do that." and "I had to tab out for 20 minutes because the game needs to justify a punishment for committing a crime" then " I'm being punished for a crime no one even seen me commit." and "Maybe I shouldn't do this again because I dislike watching my in-game character being pelted with tomatoes and having to watch it happen while being completely unable to do anything else, Oh dear me!"