Eating Our Friends RG talked about this...

Well Said Bowen!
Two Eye Balls Up!
~Time Lord~

 

BINGO. It sounds like this is all you need. Also, it is not restricted to PvP, nor is it purely for PCs.

If players don't want their corpse cannibalised for whatever reason then let them "turn it off". As people have indicated this seems to be more of an RP scenario rather than a vital part of the SotA economy.
The game will already feature "tokens" to mark a players kill count, so that can easily stand in if they are offended by full frontal cannibalism.

A few players opting out of cannibalism will not harm the overall economic aspect if it can be obtained from the rest of PCs and NPCs.

Edit: as for the harmlessness, I personally think this should not be harmless at all. It is a serious moral infraction and should be a VERY high risk endeavour.

 

Felix the Cat is better than either Disney or Looney Tunes though! There are several Felix cartoons with cannibals, though I can't find screen caps.

 

Instancing is our savior here. If Cannibals were always sorted into separate instances, then for me they don't exist and cannot affect my game play. I do have concern, however, with the fact that homes and vendors of said participants are seen in all instances.

As a business, SOTA will have to make decisions regarding the diversity of their audience. I dare say that satisfying the majority of the people's desires/beliefs should be any company's goal. That is, unless, the minority adherents can be counted on to outspend the majority. This is a business, after all. At least I assume it is. If this is not a business venture, then I have to reassess my contribution. Folks who have contributed up front have taken a chance that their dollars are purchasing something they can be comfortable with. As more and more cash flows in, morally the company needs to take into account the expectations of those supporters. Here we have an interesting thread with two conflicting trains of thought. Morally.... the developers and visionaries of SOTA need to be upfront about where the game is heading. Can both parties be fulfilled in the game design, or are other outcomes expected? There comes a time when the donors need to know.

 

Because there is a very large difference between seeing it in a cartoon for a few seconds, where they get out of it in the end and do not actually end up being eaten, and having to be exposed to it in a video game on a daily basis where people are virtually indulging in it. And having it intruding on daily life in our fantasy world, where it's taken for granted and it's acceptable to eat other people. And our kids and grandkids are exposed to it as well. IMO, that's an important issue that has to be very carefully weighed, and not to be taken frivolously.

 

Ohhh Time Lord and your various eccentric qualities....

 

Sponsored by; The New Britannia Soylent Green Cracker Co.
"Come Get a Taste of Britannia"
~Time Lord~

 

Some things are just wrong in RPGs and MMOs...which are supposed to be G A M E S ... not simulators of some extreme form of real life.

We could probably come up with a quick list of what these subjects are. I would place cannibalism in that category, personally.

That said, if the game enabled you to role play an orc, would this look the same way? So in that vein, its an interesting....if not gruesome .... topic.

 

So far I see the following as reasons for it not to be included:

- Bad taste/offensive
- Intrudes into gameplay of those who don't want it
- Exposes children to it
- Possibly creates situations where those who do take part end up with items that other won't get

I expect there are others, but these are the main ones I can see from skimming through the thread. My thoughts on each one:

Bad taste:
Yes..... but lets call a spade a spade, your talking about light-hearted pixel graphics. Your not exactly going to see anything 'that' graphic. Many of the historic Ultima games have had concepts that were close to the bone (including killing children). I see this nothing more than a but of fun or at worst a bad joke.

Intrudes:
Indeed it will. The majority of these I expect would take place in PvP (trophies etc), however no doubt it will intrude especially if you can sport a necklace made of ears for which who some might object.....I doubt those same people wouldn't give a second thought to sitting on a throne made of bones (is that equally as sick?). Unless you play single player, it doesn't matter what you like/dislike, you will always have certain things intrude into your gameplay that you might not particularly want.

Children:
Very simple answer to this one, I've said it before and I will say it again (strictly my personal opinion) kids should not be playing MMOs full stop.....there are far more worrying things to be concerned about than this topic.

Unique Items:
You either take part or you dont. Why would you want to own something you don't believe in anyway?

Once again, I see no reason for body part trophies/cannibalism not to exist. Those who still don't like it imo should aim their efforts at things that could actually break the game (*cough* card systems.......*cough cough* new map) rather than something that many people will see as a quirky bit of fun.

 

"Fritz the Cat" is the pinnacle of offensive cartoons:

I used my better judgment and removed the FRITZ movie trailer.

 

Yea but that's an adult cartoon, so its a bit off topic And I'm pretty sure there have been more adult cartoons since then.

 

I want your heart. I want to eat your children.

 

South Park the Movie is WORSE than FRITZ!!!

Google " South Park Satan Bed Penis"

We ARE an ADULT audience!!!

 

I'm surprised it took a whole nine pages for someone to mention Soylent Green.

Personally, I would rather not see cannibalism in the game. I think it's distasteful and unnecessary. There are some reasonable arguments for the inclusion of blood and body-part harvesting with regard to crafting and necromancy, but I haven't seen any argument in favour of cannibalism that to me is compelling enough to include that aspect.

As someone pointed out, just because RG likes the idea is not by itself a good enough reason to include it. If cannibalism makes it into the game it needs to be because it fits, because it works and because it makes real sense for certain character types, not just because the Boss Man says so. I would hope that RG is a good enough businessman to know that and to weigh such decisions carefully in terms of how they'll affect his game and the sales thereof.

Some of the arguments I've seen in this thread:

"RG wants it!" - see above.

"I want it!" - then make a damn good case for it; for how it would work, for what it adds to the game and for what effects it would have on the people who participate, without resorting to claiming others are trying to restrict your freedom (which seems to be a popular theme).

"It aids RP and immersion!" - roleplayers don't really need props and specific emotes. Yes, sometimes it helps, but it's not strictly necessary and such things related to cannibalism have the potential to be used purely to disgust others who want no part of it.

"It lets people show how evil they are!" - while it's true that without ugliness one can't truly appreciate beauty, there are plenty of other ways that an evil character can portray their inclinations. It's not that I don't think people should have the opportunity to 'be bad', I just don't think this is a necessary route to that opportunity.

"It'll make the game famous!" - yes, it might. I don't believe it's true that 'there's no such thing as bad publicity', and something like this might provide more notoriety than anything else. It has the potential to turn off as many new customers as it attracts and could even lose more business than it gains. I would much rather see SotA become well-known for being an awesome game with non-standard features (no hand-holding etc.) than for being 'that game where you can eat people'.


Yes, it's 'just pixels' and I'm sure we're all going to be spilling a lot of digital blood as we progress through this game anyway. But I don't see the issue as light-hearted at all - as Selbie mentioned, cannibalism is a serious moral infraction and should be treated as such. It shouldn't be all "Oh hey, fancy a snack? I made a pie out of bits of Fred this morning, it's yummy!" and everyone has a good laugh about it as they tuck in. It should be something dark and nasty and secretive, as Caska suggested - something that needs to be hidden from the world, not made light of.

It also needs to be something that people can avoid as much as possible if they want nothing to do with it. If things such as decor make it in, that's going to be more difficult to avoid. But there should never be a way to trick another player into eating something made from a person (human or otherwise), or using something such as a potion or weapon that was made from 'people parts' and which would affect their virtue if they did so. Such things should be by conscious choice of the player consuming or using the item, not by deception.

Finally, and slightly at a tangent - if cannibalism and body-part harvesting/trophies make it into the game and cannot be opted out of then that pretty much guarantees I won't try PvP. I'm not saying this as a "whaa whaa, I'm not playing with the nasty people!" sort of thing, just stating my position. I know it makes no difference to anyone else here whether I take part or not and I'm not suggesting that my decision should affect anyone else, I'm just pointing it out because I doubt I'm the only one that feels that way.

With the proposal for optional PvP as it was first laid out, I was willing to give it a try even though I generally avoid PvP like the plague. The idea of losing body parts as trophies, especially if they were named, and the possibility of being eaten, is completely off-putting and I will not subject myself to that. Being able to ransom my bits and pieces back doesn't help, I don't want them to be taken in the first place. If the dev team really want to encourage non-PvPers to venture into the playstyle, they need to take things like this into account. I'll certainly still play the game in multiplayer, I expect there to be a huge amount of things I'll enjoy about it. This won't be one of them, that's all.

At the end of the day, nothing I've said here will really make a difference. People who are in favour will stand on their side of the fence demanding the right to feast on man-flesh, and people who are opposed are going to stand on their side with their arms defiantly folded saying "nuh-uh!", and the whole thing will keep going in circles. It's going to be down to the team to make a decision on what to include and to what level of detail, based on what they think is best for their game, and they won't be able to please everyone no matter what they do.

 

Give us man flesh!

 

It is really an issue of it being an MMO, I think. I think media can affect kids, but its usually not the subject itself that's to worry, its the presentation of the subject. A lot of the single player Ultima games had a lot of mature and grisly material in them -- especially Serpent Isle -- but I would never keep a kid away from them, because they're also pretty responsible about it and don't indulge in it in juvenile ways. The planned Arthurian Legends game was even going to have a subplot with a child-eating cannibal. But within an MMO, you can expect players to do a variety of distasteful things. But then, they're going to do a variety of distasteful things even without props given to them by the game, too. I can only imagine the things adult players will say around kids that would be inappropriate and won't be monitored.

However, its not just an issue for kids or people feint at heart. As much as it has an ability to add color to the game, it equally has an ability to break immersion. We don't want to get body parts stacked up around a house in town, with the town guards caring about it. We don't want to see human meat vendors in town. We don't want it to be an equal alternative to eating animal meat, without any penalties. So the bottom line is that the devs have to think about how this is going to work and what type of boundaries cannibalism would need if it were to work in the game. And in the end, whether its more effort than its worth to include it.

 

Karrolanth <---<<< that's a well thought opinion !
Another 2 eye balls up on that one
~Time Lord~

 

I am still confused by much of this thread ... skinning a corpse is bad if it is NPC human but perfectly ok if is NPC kobold - a sentient non-human. Cannibalism is bad but zombies, werewolves, vampires and those needing blood transfusions are good. (Are you saying vampires and hemophiliacs are parasites and parasites are ok?) Being a ganker is frowned upon but ok, but killing gankers and displaying their skulls is in bad taste. Hmmm. Cartoons are good, unless they are bad. Disney was anti-Semitic but pro cryogenic ... I'm confused ... is this a game?

In the end, I am a simple person. I will play a simple person. I will not eat people. (In game, in RL I might if you ask nice.) I will play a paladinesque persona. I will not engage in much if any PvP. I will not practice the dark arts. BUT I am not against a game system that can support such things. RL supports such things. There may be consequences, yes. Not every cannibal gets Kuru, just like not every meat eater gets Creutzfeldt-Jakob. (But I don't eat sheep's brain either.) I do think that every necromancer creating zombies from human corpses is probably not opposed to human talismans and ingredients (though as I understand it Jeffery Dalmer was not a necromancer per se.)

As for what offends people, I get it. Some things offend certain people that others are not bothered by. I could type horrible racial, ethnic or religious slurs right here. I would likely be banned for doing so. NOT because my keyboard lacks the letters or even that the chat interface won't allow such things, but because my fellow posters would be offended and turn me in. Why do you suppose that having things like cannibalism in game will mean condoned griefing? Just because the system might allow it, does not make it right to flaunt and insult other players with. If a person does such things, they should be reported just like any other form of griefing. But if they keep it to themselves where you don't have to see it, what does it matter to you? I assure you I throw around the bannable offense of using the word C@^&Be@R. Heck I am one! I am proud of it. I am all soft and fluffy and give out hugs ... but even those bears have teeth. Yes, words can offend. But we shouldn't stop talking just because some words can offend. We should educate and move beyond. If you fear a system where something offensive can be done - like cannibalism- you probably fear a system where nasty, uncomfortable things can be said. But surely, that is not the case. No one here would be pro-censorship to the extent that we should only be allowed to chat with the approved predefined emotes and phrases. No, real interaction is scary and can be offensive. When it offends us too often or too much, we must act to stop it. Sorry, but cannibalism in a computer game doesn't even make my radar as a problem I should be dealing with. (Though I don't want to see it in the streets of SotA either!)

In the end, I think I must take the route of those more wise who have gone before me and simply bow out of this conversation here. I wish you all well, no matter what side of the fence you are on, and hope there can be some compromise and agreement.

 

It's okay to resurrect a rotting corpse and manipulate it to do your bidding, but unethical to eat one? Right. Much hypocrisy here.