"Elevation abuse prevention mechanism" is broken.

I do not bother to make a bug report about this any more. Have made them, and they have not even been acknowledged. Have asked about this explicitly -- also completely ignored (at least I haven't heard anything about this since the first video chat).

The thing is, the "elevation abuse prevention mechanism", or whatever you prefer to call it, is fundamentally broken, by design. To put it bluntly, in my opinion it is the worst design decision made in the SotA history. Sorry if the tone of this message sounds like a two-by-four on the head, but I get the feeling that this is one elephant in the room that the devs are reluctant to discuss.

Case in point. Today I went to Solace Forest to test my shiny new bow, and to get some hides, maybe with luck, some suet. Turns out, once again, I can't even approach the wolves from afar (as you should be doing unless you want to be torn to shreds by an entire pack) because the "elevation abuse prevention mechanism" kicks in. Because this did not happen to be completely even terrain.

Spoiler: Now how does this make sense?

Inside that spoiler tag is a picture of this mess. Please have a look, while noting this is not some weird exception, this is just ONE example of what happens every single day. I first tried to shoot the timber wolf (the one now walking peacefully in the foreground) and the mechanism kicked in, because of slight difference in elevation (I think the wolf was located next to that rabbit corpse which is not shown because it is behind the hill). Result: zero damage and a completely docile wolf walking around a couple of yards from me. Then I tried the large grey wolf, with the result that it just ran to its "spawning point" and switched its super-healing gear (guess I hit it pretty hard the first time). Wasted maybe 30 arrows to it before concluding that I it just heals too fast (should have been dead many times over already). Then, after waiting a while, and starting shooting again, the "elevation abuse prevention mechanism" kicked in again, this time for the large grey wolf, so it too became invincible (that is the last three shots in the chat log).

Go and have a look at it yourself -- the place is right next to the Solace Forest entrance (roughly location 121.6, 29.8, -21.7 right next to the Cotton node) -- and ask yourself; "does this mechanism make ANY sense?"

And this is NOT some "wolf specific aggro problem" (don't expect to see a note in the next patch changelog "fine-tuned some wolves in Solace Forest because aggro was not working for them") but a larger, in my opinion very fundamental problem, related to the very concept of the "elevation abuse prevention mechanism".

If abuse is considered so problematic, that it warrants destroying a fundamental strategic spatial element (elevation), and turning it into the worst immersion breaker in recent SotA history, then perhaps it would pay off to invest some developer time in fixing the root causes? It's not that they are some arcane secret - to name just two most important: 1) unintelligent mob behavior and 2) fixed spawning locations. Fix these, and poof! - elevation abuse problems mostly gone.

Once again, sorry if this sounds harsh, I just don't know anymore how else to get proper attention to this issue that I regard as almost a deal-breaker for this game. I love this game and I want it to be at its best when it finally comes out.

Thank you for listening.

 

The mechanic is designed to prevent you from standing in a place that the mobs cannot reach due to pathing. I can't even tell where you are standing in that image, so no way of saying if this is working as intended. Elevation itself should not cause this.

Fixes to this have been discussed, but involve fairly significant changes to AI that is not going to happen for Episode 1 (i.e., things like mobs jumping, climbing, intelligent ones casting blink, etc.) It is not just a small amount of time to fix, while maintaining the existing desirable behavior.

If you find a specific terrain spot where this is happening, and mobs should be able to walk to it, report it as a /bug. If you climb a bunch of rocks and it happens, yeah that is expected.

 

Thank you for your comments!

Yeah, that's why I called it "elevation prevention abuse mechanism"

I told in my post where I was standing (roughly loc 121.6, 29.8, -21.7 right next to the cotton node). There are no rocks or anything like that in the immediate vicinity. I'm standing on grass, just like the wolves, and they have a crystal clear, direct path to me. That timber wolf could get to me in about 1 second (actually, after waiting for some "docility timeout" to wear off, it did exactly that, and it killed me while I was writing my post, so that's why I'm saying "roughly" that location), and that large grey could easily have run to me in maybe 4-5 seconds.

You're saying that "elevation did not cause this" with apparent certainty. Would you have something to back this up please, perhaps some design documents or design related discussion with the devs? Because my everyday experience with the bow is very different: when a similar thing happens many times over (yes, with an obvious path for the mob to reach me) the only common denominator (that is observable to a normal player) has been elevation. But I could certainly be wrong - so if it's not elevation, then what exactly is it?

Could you please give some pointers to where this has been discussed? Because I've not really seen even an acknowledgement that this is regarded as an issue, let alone a serious one.

It's good to hear that at least something has been planned. I can fully understand if Episode I would be too soon.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I've made at least two bug reports about this. I don't really feel like making yet another bug report to be ignored. I'll consider making one once some developer at least bothers to explain what is going on in here, in terms of game mechanics. As I said this is not an isolated incident, fixable by "fine-tuning a couple of wolves in Solace Forest".

 

I think I understand what he is saying, which seems to highlight some missing 'typical' problems related to character pathing and detection and collision engine concerns..

I still find it surprising that Unity didn't come with all this included, which would enable Sota to implement pathing and behaviour at a more sophisticated level without having to spend time building that...

 

No, I said "Elevation itself should not cause this." If it is, that is a bug.

I went back to look, and apparently the discussion must have been in a previous release feedback section because I can't find the post. It had definitely come up, and we had some back and forth with the devs about it.

The point of pre-alpha is to test systems, not to get attention. If you don't feel like making a bug report, fine. I'll go there and do some testing of my own, and submit my own report. It isn't the developers responsibility to respond to every post in the forums. If you know enough to know there is a abuse mechanic in play, you should be able to tell if it is working correctly or needs to be reviewed, by submitting a bug report.

 

Unity comes with some pathing, but its far too simplistic. There are plenty of A* pathfinding add-ins on the Unity Store that are cheap (or even free), but those only get you so far. For a lot of these types of issues, you need actual pathfinding nodes pre-compiled in the level, in addition to A* for travel between those nodes, and top that off with AI that can traverse blocking objects, either by jumping, climbing, or 'warping' (although that last is not generally recommended). That's a lot of work that needs to go into every scene and every NPC AI.

 

Before we started this mechanic, we discussed internally the design we wanted. We ended up with something that is fairly straightforward. However, it is *not* bug free

If a npc cannot path to you, you are considered off the grid. Technically there is no navmesh under the player, there is no way for the npc to get to the player.

Interesting note - it *USED* to be that players were locked to the navmesh just like NPCS! However, we made a choice to let players go where they want - rocks, roofs, etc. We wanted people to be able to jump too. There is no way for npcs to navigate everywhere like the player can.

When a npc detects that the player is off the grid *and* that npc cannot get close enough (weapon range), then they are being exploited by that player - they look for a target they *can* reach. If there isn't one, they leash invulnerable. This is the design. This keeps players from killing mobs where the mobs have zero chance of successful combat.

I mentioned it's not bug free - in the case of rocks - I expect it to function this way. In the case of *resource nodes* and *trees* - I can imagine that the navmesh that is constructed from the baking process isn't tuned - and large areas around the nodes/trees are inaccessible for npcs. I know of several tree types that we have been fixing create problems for the navmesh. Small resources nodes like cotton should be able to be walked through by npcs. I can see that if you found a creature with a small attack range - and stood just right - you could be off the grid.

Navmesh tuning is going to take time as we keep adding new content. We need to rebake all of our levels periodically when we change how something effects the mesh.

In your previous post you mentioned standing on rocks - npcs are working as designed. If you had multiple people in your party... expect an npc that has you targeted, disengage when you jump on the rocks, and go after your buddy that isn't on the rocks. If you are indeed solo - they will go back to their spawn location.

We also need to clean up our spawn locations, too many of them are out in the open and make little sense. In the case of wolfs, our goal is to spawn them from dens.

In summary it's not directly related to elevation, but to navmesh. Elevation is a driving part of how the navmesh is generated.... too steep of an ascent for a npc - it's a place a npc can't get to and is off the grid.

 

Ty Scrambler, this was a really awesome explanation!

 

Unity4.x navmesh system was pretty basic. Unity is getting better over time - new releases add functionality - but we use 'Astar Pathfinding Project'. ASPP has had some features we've been using - like supporting hundreds of graphs in the same scene (player lots), and dynamic navmesh support like navmesh cutting, dynamic grid tagging (water, hills, inside). ASPP had these features when we started the project Kickstarter days and quickly became invaluable... and has *source* code.

Unity5's navmesh system has lots of newer features and adds support for some of the things we are currently doing.

 

This is an interesting topic to me because I remember how in Ultima Online people were getting banned for building defensive fortifications out of crates and pelting mobs with arrows. I always grimaced because shouldn't part of the GAME be to outthink the enemy strategically? It just seemed so luddite. I think if I had the unfortunate pick of being an archer I'd at least like the prerogative to stand on a roof or cliff and do my pathetic arrow damage. Generally speaking I do not like game mechanisms and policies that punish the player for design failures. It's like saying the player is fault for us having dumb npcs. Now I realize Scrambler is not saying this is the case or intent, but I wanted to add my thought. Players should be allowed to play with a strategy and as long as it's not via bug ( shooting an npc from inside a wall ) it should be fair game to shoot something from atop a cliff. The archer is going to have to come down and loot anyway. I just don't understand what in the natural world requires a ranged attacker make himself available to a melee counterattack. This is totally a reduction of ranged class to a playstyle of running in circles around enemies in no doubt already light armor when in practice many players enjoy the roguelike aspect of being a sniper.

 

Hopefully if they do get those things in, some mobs will better be able to do those things than others. Using my position as an advantage is a tactic I've used a lot in games, including Skyrim, and I think its a legit tactic. Most animals wouldn't be able to climb steep slopes like humans do. And humans should have different degrees of skill, and armor would impair climbing.

Also, mobs still can't cross deep water, can they?

 

I would kindly ask being a bit more careful about implying the intentions and motivations of others.

As you're well aware (not sure about everyone so I'm kind of stating the obvious in here), bugs are usually managed in some kind of issue tracking system, here is an example of one in action. One of the best features of such systems is exactly what the name implies, tracking. Now Portalarium certainly uses (internally) some kind of issue tracking system too, even though I don't know the details. But additionally they've elected to use forums as an intermediate channel for the pre-alpha users to report bugs. This is fine, but the consequence of this decision is that those who actually report bugs lose tracking, i.e. without even a read-only view to the tracking systems itself, there is no way of knowing if the bug has even been read (as they generally do not share this information, a "bug entered" note in a lucky case). This can be indeed a bit frustrating, but more importantly it often makes it difficult to even know what to report.

If what you are implying were indeed true -- that it is a location specific bug -- then I've already filed such report(s), and an additional one would be a duplicate, as far as I'm concerned. The last one I filed was "fixed" precisely by adjusting the location of a couple of wolves.

However as I said, based on my own experiences I believe this is not an isolated location specific issue. So filing a bug report about it with my current knowledge would imply that it is simply that, and the deeper problem would not get fixed, just adjusting a couple of wolves again. So I need to know more about the matter before even filing a bug report (e.g. what exactly could be going on, how to test it etc.).

And thank you for investigating it further, you seem to have much more knowledge about the matter than I.

 

Thank you @Scrambler for the explanation!

What I still don't understand, is that I dont't think was actually off the grid, I was more or less standing stationary and the cotton node was not right next to me but at least several meters away (I just mentioned it because I noticed it was nearby). I mean, how large can that area be around a cotton node? And in any case the timber wolf was able to kill me from that position quite happily once she got out of her "special state".

I'll try to test it further now that I understand it a bit better.

 

So, if they eventually got to you and you didn't move, then I believe you were on the grid at that time. Navmesh morphs itself around obstacles, terrain, etc. It's hard to know exactly what the mesh looks like w/o pulling up the scene and going to exactly where you were. I'll take a quick look . Is it possible you were being aggroed, and managed to step into a place that was off the grid briefly, sending the npc back to the spawn location, and in the mean time getting back on the grid? Once a npc starts to go back to their spawner, they will NOT be interrupted until they get there. To use a rock example, getting aggro, jumping on a rock, npc starts to leash home, but quickly jumping back to the ground. In this case the npc is already headed home - you are an invalid target until they get home. Once they get back they reset some state.

Part of the current problem is we don't see their spawn location - but it's hard to know *where* that location is - like I mentioned earlier due to them not spawning from an actual den, but in the open somewhere.

 

This is actually one of the main reasons we have this design. To keep people from getting on top of towers, raining fireballs on all the npcs below, when they literally cannot detect, or fight back.

 

Are the Kobalds at the Graff Gem Mines exhibiting this as well? The first group of three when you take that first left have obvious distance issues. They aggro from respectable range but only run about 30 feet before leashing.

 

Nothing does. However, in the real world, the targets will run away, seek shelter, or bring out their own ranged weapons to counterattack. NPC AI only has the first option, but are limited in their distance before leashing. So to prevent players from being able to gain xp without threat, this mechanic is employed.

Nothing stops you from being a sniper. This mechanic only prevents you from being a LONE sniper. In a group, you can go snipe while the other player engages directly.

This does bring up a good point; this mechanic might need to be turned off for Single Player Offline; if you want to be a sniper there, you really don't have a choice.

 

What are the design decisions behind leashing, btw? From a pure AI perspective, I think it makes sense in some circumstances, but not in others. Is there a player abuse aspect?

 

As an aside (perhaps related), some of the wolves in Solace Forest have a really short leash. I tried to kill a Large Timber Wolf near the aforementioned location with my bow, but simply couldn't - at my current level it is a real threat and also really fast, thereby requiring avoidance as much as possible. I tried to circle around it, but regardless, after just one or two shots it went to its spawner and rehealed. I dealt around 1850 points of damage to it, managing once to bring it to less than half health, giving up when at some point it went invulnerable (guess I stepped on some off the grid spot).

 

Leashing generally does a couple of things. First, it prevents players from training large groups of hostile enemies to dump them on other players (which is not only toxic behavior, but rude). It also allows easier sets of pre-defined behavior that they don't want interrupted (i.e., spawn in a cave and wander within 300 meters of that spawn point as a pack, stay within a 30 meter square to protect this treasure, etc). I'm sure there are other programmatic things that the mechanic is used for.