Gambling

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MrBlight, Jun 17, 2017.

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  1. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

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    That's not how that responsibility works casinos can't allow a twelve year old to gamble because they show'd up with an ID from a 25 year old. Online gambling is already questionable in the US, allowing underage gambling would be the nail in the coffin.
    You might not, others, particularly gambling addicts might think otherwise. If Port wasn't selling gold in the form of COTOs and endorsing people to buy and sell those COTOs for real world money, they'd probably be fine, but since they are any gambling in game is close enough to the real thing for the government to take notice. The "just a game" bit already falls flat some places, Japan has consistent issues with folks using pachinko parlors to gamble by proxy, can't see how this would be treated differently.
     
  2. Bowen Bloodgood

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    You seem to have missed the point. That being at a real casino.. there is someone physically there to see that you're a kid vs an adult.

    This isn't Japan and Portalarium isn't buying COTOs. If it were just a matter of people being ABLE to gamble in-game then no MMO is safe simply because real people are involved. How much you want to bet that say.. someone holds a PvP tournament over next weekend? Shall we say $10 store credit? There is no function in the forum to support gambling, that doesn't mean it can't take place. And people already take wagers on PvP tournaments. Should Portalarium get in trouble because people are allowed to do that?
     
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  3. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

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    You've kind of missed the point that being digital doesn't absolve Port of that responsibility.

    Port isn't, but Markee can and probably does and Port endorses his actions.

    In most MMOs, the management would, because in most states operating a book making operation is illegal and allowing illegal activities on your game is a good way to get the government to stick their noses in. It is absolutely trivial to gamble in SotA today, just use /roll [100] with the agreement that all participants hand their wager to the highest roll. WoW bans you for the game, I doubt Port would.
     
  4. TheWanderingPoet

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    So basically from what I'm getting from this is that we can't have gambling because it's illegal to let a child who stole his mothers credit card, gambled underage, and got caught. Somehow that's our fault.

    Sounds like his parents need to teach him things like values, the value of money, and what christmas looks like without presents.
     
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  5. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Quite the contrary. There is simply no way for Portalarium to confirm the identity (or age for that matter) of anyone who's in-game at any given time.. and being a game.. there is no reason for anyone to expect that they should.

    Markee is not a Portalarium employee. Nor is he (to the best of our knowledge) under any kind of contract with Portalarium. For that matter, simply buying COTOs for cash isn't illegal.

    All of that is dependent upon players interacting with other players and becomes pretty moot. Portalarium would no doubt shut down any illegal activities should they be found out. That's a no brainer. So should we remove then the /roll function because some kid with a gambling addiction could abuse it? Cause if that's the logic we're going with we might as well just shut the game and all MMOs down right now because there's potential someone might try something illegal.

    Besides all that.. *I* have been talking about a system that does NOT use COTOs and I'm pretty sure most players would be happy enough with using a such a gold sink as intended with in game currency.
     
  6. redfish

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    @Burzmali

    Just curious, if you know the answer... how does the law relating to gambling treat raffles and lotteries ?
     
  7. Andartianna

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    Does the wishing well count?
     
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  8. gtesser

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    It would be fun if you could gamble gold at a casino (like Buccaneer's Den) in multiplayer mode, so if you lost, you could not load an old save game to get your money back. But if you bet 100k on a game of roulette and left with 200k wouldn't that feel great? It would be a big risk, depending on how much you bet, just like PvP is.
     
  9. Razimus

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    One live stream I think it was a telethon they talked about a pirate island they wanted to add to the game, and when gambling was brought up they liked the concept, Buc's Den U7 is what most were thinking of. Such seems like an Episode II type thing though, and even though pre-payment for Ep II & III were included in packages it is unknown what the future holds. I'd still encourage a pirate expansion though, can't go wrong with pirates & gambling.
     
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  10. Lazlo

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    More like we can't have gambling because SotA's RMT status makes it a legal gray area with potential headaches that far outweigh the benefits for Port.
     
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Indicators so far seem to be that Portalarium doesn't currently see it that way.
     
  12. Lazlo

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    Maybe so, but I would be very surprised if they didn't arrive at that conclusion if they got to the point where they were seriously considering implementing things like this. The risk versus reward would just be really horrible for them. Just the time spent to make an informed decision is pretty significant.

    SotA can be played anywhere, and every country has it's own rules wrt to online gambling, as does every state in the US. Most of those rules are not entirely clear and the enforcement of these rules ranges anywhere from overzealous to completely nonsensical. It's just not something that's worth wading into to any degree unless the reward is very large, and that's clearly not the case here.
     
  13. Bowen Bloodgood

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    And that brings us right back to.. where do you draw the line? Technically speaking, anyone can gamble at any time. With, or without Portalarium implementing a system.. and when such a system is NOT designed for gambling real money.. you'd have to go through 3rd parties to actually do it which is what you'd have to do now basically.

    I'd rather not use logic to make mountains out of mole hills as excuse not to do something.
     
  14. Lazlo

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    Different states and countries draw the line at different places. In most places, neither transferring money through a third party or offering non-gambling services makes gambling any more legal, as many clever bars, churches, websites, etc can attest to.

    It doesn't make much difference what you or I think aught to be legal. The rules are what they are, and in many places this could potentially be against the rules. It's not very good for a game if customers have to worry about whether or not they are breaking the law where they live because of some peripheral game feature that isn't going to make or break most peoples' opinion of the game.
     
  15. TheWanderingPoet

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    There is a lot of gambling already in the game. Take crafting for instance. You're gambling for that high tier item with the risk of losing it all. At what point does it become illegal?
     
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  16. MrBlight

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    Yea.. see thats kinda how i would argue the RMT point.

    With that logic im spending $$ on silver ore. Does that mean that every craft is a gamble of a % chance of success? Is that legal then?
    How is that different then using Gold for in game betting on a % ? Which is essentially all gambling games..

    I think its less of a legal issue then people are portraying.... Tons of games have them, and tons of games have RMT. I dont think it ties in that much unless they were selling gold directly? And even if they were... its not like your buying gambling tokens. Your buying an in game currency to use as you choose fit.

    I would think this ties in with, if i spend 100$ on gold. Then buy an item. And lets say i accidentally delete the item. Is port responsible for me loosing 100$?
    A kid could buy 500 cotos right now, and trade me them for a rusty dagger. Is port responsible?
    Seems like a basic consent thing.

    I dunno. I would like to hear from a dev on their stance on it. Because bar room games, Dice / Cards into sota would actually be a really fantastic and entertaining feature.
     
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  17. Bowen Bloodgood

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    So far the only real argument I've heard is.. "it COULD be POTENTIALLY illegal" but so could /roll 100 if all parties agree to exchange real money which they can already do despite the fact that the /roll feature isn't designed for that. So by that logic we should just shut down ALL multiplayer games everywhere because they could potentially be abused. That's not very convincing.
     
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  18. Lazlo

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    It's not something that's set in stone most places, because doing so makes it easy for people to circumvent the rules. So in general, it often becomes illegal at the point where a judge determines it to be illegal.

    I understand what you guys are saying, but this is not a new issue. There is a ton of precedent on all of these points. Just because there is an element of randomness to most things doesn't mean that most things that have an element of randomness and involve money are considered gambling by the people who decide.

    Fwiw, I have nothing against rm gambling. The reason that I've followed this subject closely is precisely because online gambling was my livelihood for many years. I can tell you that if you think these are paranoid concerns that aren't likely to ever be of much significance, you're in for a surprise.
     
  19. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Except we're not talking about a system for rm gambling or even facilitating such. That a player can turn it into such is no different than being able to turn anything else into gambling.

    If Portalarium actually facilitated gold selling from players or even just provided tools for it then I'd think you might have a point.. but they don't.
     
  20. Lazlo

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    That just isn't true in a lot of places and it's been put to the test many times. If the thing that you're doing meets gambling criteria and the currency that you are gambling with has value, you're very likely to be considered gambling for money even if the currency isn't actually money and no matter how many times the currency has to be swapped before it becomes actual money.
     
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