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Goodbye Open PvP

Discussion in 'Release 16 Feedback' started by Net, Apr 23, 2015.

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  1. Net

    Net Avatar

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    Well, I will start with short version for impatient readers. In Open PvP you currently face two choices. Be the jerk, and attack first. Or be dead. Well, I do not want to be either.


    (Sorry if the video is blocked in Germany)

    I base this on yesterday's event which opened my eyes. I had plenty of chances to attack first, but then I would be the jerk ruining the event, and I did not wanted to do so, despite being provoked to take the action. Well, when the event ended, I wanted to ask a question to people there, but I was attacked and killed. Not a surprise that it happened by people exploiting every broken mechanic of combat (invisibility, pre-stacking, earthquake, /follow, /zone...). We cannot be healed by non party members which is sad. And we cannot be healed by non PvP party members either. So we can ditch our friends to make party of temporary allies, or we can stay in party with friends and suffer the consequences.

    What made me quite sad was that people there seemed to approve of such behaviour. Sure, Jacob Canaan, Xail and Gatsu did not attack during the event, but if I am about to be attacked before or after the event then why should I attend? Or why should I be the one getting attacked and killed? Really, the only viable counter to what Xail and Jacob did is not to let them stack. That means rez killing and spawn camping. Is this really what you want PvP in SotA to be? Well good luck with that, I am not interested in such PvP.
     
  2. Kara Brae

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    Sadly, it is.
     
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  3. Gabriel Nightshadow

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    Well, apparently that is what die-hard PvPers want (i.e., rez killing and spawn camping) :( I do believe there MUST be some way to conduct player tournaments, which are really duels with certain rules of conduct o_O, as opposed to Open PvP :mad: Perhaps the developers can allow for a third setting for lots used for tournaments (where rules can be set by the lot owner...) (Clicking on the "duel" option on your opponent and waiting for him/her to "accept" isn't always convenient, especially if lag or multiple combatants are involved...:oops:) Hmm...:rolleyes:
     
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  4. Gaelis

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    Really sad to see that Video, but Net...we all will have a lot of fun without PvP flag ;)
     
  5. E n v y

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    Wish I had been there.....

    But really sorry if this offends........but welcome to real PvP without namby pamby rule sets and hand holds with the classic slapping your enemy across the face with a lace glove before combat.

    Long may it all continue.
     
  6. Net

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    Do not get me wrong, I am all for PvP being possible everywhere, but I would prefer if people did not approve of murder even when it happens after the event. All I would like is to see some consequences, if you are known murderer you will have much harder stay in civilized (i.e. protected) areas. I know Valemark has no guards but OH has them and they are very useless and I wonder if they will be only after theft or will do more in the future. Either way open PvP as is now in Sota favours PK in two big ways. 1) Coop is hard, you need to set up party for heals and everything (I think that any PvPer should be allowed both to attack and heal any other PvPer) while Pks in party do not get any friendly fire from area of effect spells and 2) there is no consequence for being murderer. While I think murdering someone should be possible, getting away with it should be damn hard. Only way how to let someone suffer is to gank them and rez kill them till they log out, it gets boring quickly and it sheds bad light on you.
     
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  7. Net

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    I am working on fix, maybe google will let me remove the problematic song.
    EDIT: It should work now.
    Aye we will, I would just hope we could have fun with it as well:)
     
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  8. Poor game design

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    A few, but not all. Let's not group all people that enjoy pvp into the same group. They can speak for themselves.

    When I see the video in the OP, all I see is bad pvp in a bad combat system.

    There's no balance, no risk, no real rewards either...pvp is not complete (I assume). The best thing people can do is continue to voice what they like and what they don't like. That's how this is going to get closer to "better". It's only when we become satisfied with bad combat at that it becomes what the finished product looks like.
     
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  9. Weins201

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    Sadly this is NOT unexpected and what a lot of us have been saying all along.
     
  10. Poor game design

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    I've said this a few times over the last 6 months, but it bares repeating...

    There are really three major systems in SOTA:

    1. Housing. Obviously this is where most of the "work" has gone to date.
    2. Crafting. Despite major deficiencies, this system has also seen a lot of "love" over the last two years.
    3. Combat (and pvp). This leg of the stool has gotten the least amount of attention. It's never been balanced, it doesn't really fit into the world of SOTA yet, and it has some questionable design decisions that appear at odds with roleplaying (see video above for one example).

    These three systems are integrated with lore and "the story" giving us Shroud of the Avatar. It seems as though every time the developers work on Housing, the other two legs of the stool (Crafting and even more so Combat) are barely touched.

    I'm looking forward to a day when both crafting and combat (pvp) get the attention they deserve. Make no mistake, I'm not suggesting that the developers did this on purpose. I'm just suggesting that the results speak for themselves. Housing is what the devs have had the ability to work on, and that's why it's so much more advanced than the rest of the game. If this were a housing simulator and that's all we really cared about, we might be able to launch tomorrow.
     
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  11. Satan Himself

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    It would be nice if people would "behave" better, but open PvP areas should be just that, open PvP. Buyer beware. Personal choice. You're still free to occupy non-PvP areas or have only consensual PvP. It will be hard (impossible?) to keep everyone happy in a PvP zone. So I say make it a free-for-all.

    Although I can see advantages to a reputation system, I'd prefer a system in which you can PvP to your heart's content without much consequences and then go back to "Trammel" and live a normal life.

    If you're running a PvP event on your property, you ought to be able to ban people who disrupt the event.

    If you are killed/ganked, what's the big deal? You res and move on.

    Personally, I wish there were even harsher PvP areas with partial or full loot.
     
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  12. Satan Himself

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    I look forward to the day when we can craft combat in our house. :D
     
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  13. Arkah EMPstrike

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    It should be completed before any real balancing takes place. Combat focused releases are nearby.
     
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  14. Poor game design

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    This is debatable and so I guess that's why we're debating it. What I mean is, no where is it written in stone that you HAVE to balance combat after all combat has been put into the game.

    Here's why I think that's a HORRIBLE argument. What happens when the combat you put into the game is inherently unbalanced? You're never going to balance it no matter what you do. I think we're dangerously close to that right now. The combat we have today will never balance because it's not designed in a way that CAN balance.

    It's all DPS. So if you add more damage to one thing you're really just removing damage from another thing. Something is always going to do "the most" damage, and so something will always be a "best build". We should've been balancing this combat system from the start, and then instead of having to start over again we would've only had one or two pieces of combat in place before we said "yeah this is never going to balance".

    I've been hearing that combat focused releases were going to happen for 6 months. We were supposed to get a PVP thread in February. I have no doubt that these things will eventually happen. I also understand that the developers are busy juggling a lot of stuff.

    But the idea that the closer we get to launch the easier it's going to be to balance. That's just silly talk. The only way this combat system is ever going to balance is if we redefine what the core system is...

    If we're not going to account for latency, not going to have combat "rounds", not going to account for "who shoots first", and not going to have a way to block or counter attacks...then we're looking at what combat will be in SOTA right now.

    Sure there may be some tweaks that can be made the lessen the gap between playable and not playable. But at its core, this combat systems is BROKEN.
     
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  15. Arkah EMPstrike

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    It's not all DPS. theres alot of defence especially against Melee damage, and that defense is way overpowered. Melee damage is negligable to someone with jsut a chain tunci and a little wooden shield.

    not all armor and enchantments are in the game yet. currently, armor is overpowered agaisnt what its meant to defend against, and other ways to make one resistant to magic arent in the game yet. If you tinekr with the damag eof spells until it feels right, and THEN add enchantments or more spells that defend agaisnt magic, will magic become underpowered again? Its easier to wait till the stuff is there.

    But there is alot of combat balancing coming very soon. And i hope they start by making melee able to damage someone in armor better so that it can be balanced agaisnt magic damage better.

    Magic is the only way to deal reasonable damage in PvP at the moment, unless your agaisnt a shirtless person.
     
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  16. Poor game design

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    Everything you just talked about is DPS. Everything.

    It's either ATTACK DPS or DEFENSE DPS - but it's all DPS.

    Which means that the only way to be good in pvp is to max out ATTACK and DEFENSE DPS. There's no skill involved, there's no tactics or strategy (of note). It's just build THIS WAY and attack first, the end. That's really my point. Who cares if they put more armor or swords or skills or spells into the game? Who cares if they change defensive bonuses +10 or -20? At the end of the day it's all just a straight DPS calculation because you can't really do anything to improve your odds of winning if you don't have the right build.
     
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  17. Duke Lorimus

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    I think Budner Hit the nail on the head .,

    Net should be able to attend that event as a Open pvp person ... and Jacob should be able to attack him .. If the property owner disapproves of Net who is his or her guest being attacked than they should be able to ban Jacob. until then Net would have to continue to defend himself .. In my eyes that was all fair game .. the property owner is the only one that has a say in that situation. besides Net or Jacob if one or both decided to bow out .
     
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  18. Poor game design

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    I would hope that open pvp would be a bit more sophisticated than that.

    Open PVP at its core should not be random chaos for the sake of random chaos. Why? Because this is a roleplaying game. You have to think about PVP as more of a sporting event and LESS of a right to gank whoever you can whenever you can. There's nothing sporting about that.

    Suppose we're playing Tennis. There are rules to Tennis. When you can server. When something is considered a point. When something is considered out of bounds, etc...

    In PVP we have to have some type of structure, especially when we're talking about roleplaying (and again, this is a a roleplaying game). What's currently missing is that there are no rules to pvp. I'm not saying you have to have strict rules that prevent openly attacking net at an event like this, but I am saying that combat should designed so that a fight doesn't look anything like what we see in the OP video. This is a longer discussion that I'm concerned will fall on deaf ears. But the overall point is that having "no rules" and completely open and free PVP means that the person only in it for meaningless kills will always be able to ignore social norms that come with good roleplaying.

    The game should be designed with roleplaying in mind, first. Even when it comes to open pvp.
     
  19. Doomgate

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    That's not exactly pvp and no I personally don't want sota to be a spawn camp killing game I can play WoW for that.

    your first spawn where you just dropped dead I feel that wasn't nessasery of them but the rest seemed fine you got up u healed u got in to a decent fight with them usend your skill wit to out play them, some people even tried to help but most where rather oblivious to what was actually happening. With the exception of the start that would be my expectations to pvp maybe if you had more help and/or could communicate with the people helping you the fight could of gone better for you.

    I think lack of organisation to the event and lack of every one else in that circle of people careing was one of the reasons they could do what they did had every one there been on a same understanding or just a team speak the people that ganked you would of been dead in seconds.

    There was nothing wrong with sota's pvp or even it's system, I have played hardcore pvp games where event such as this has taken place the host(s) placed sentries (other players mainly makes and archers) they kept the peace or ended anything that wasn't meant to be.

    But this has placed you at an advantage in the long run, you now own a list of names that ate kill on sight with out you feeling sorry or any kind of regret. they on the other hand might still hesitate to attack.
     
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  20. StrangerDiamond

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    I think this exemplifies perfectly how people do not understand at all what "die-hard" pvp fans want.

    Mostly because they don't know themselves what they really want for having been ripped by the roots, and "time passing" is not going to change that.

    Yes something remains, the experiment was cause and I'm the effect.

    Even in the term itself, die-hard means we like to not die often or res kill, but we like for it to mean something, its the humble acceptance of the fact that in order to really have fun in a fantasy game, you must use your imagination and build a little story in your mind which can find some parallel chaotic events in the game environement. People who will say otherwise do not do so in a toughtful manner, they have simply not enough maturity to realise it and mistake the adrenaline rush for the strategic climax and archetypal becoming. The real end goal, pleasure, is really not in the eye of the beholder and has crystallised with D&D, its one of those things that have been hammered to infinity and is now diamond hard.

    Will a vinyl record ever lose its charm ? Yes its a pain in the ass, easily broken and noisy, but the comparison isn't so far fetched.

    READ REAL CHAOS. The more realistic the game looks, the more idealistic the expectation.

    I think after all the reading, I never seen one person argue the rethoric which is often perceived as a threat that states social organisation will inevitably lead to characterization and overpowered guilds. In fact the irony is the impossibility to have such a rethoric because of the lack of experience and "true sight" as it pertains to how a multiplayer game should be "moderated" or in other words how the game master gives vision and thus importance to each unique player.

    That is still the splinter in the achilles foot, as if his affliction wasn't enough. lol :)

    The conundrum remains to be revealed in full... anyone step forward ?
     
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