Grinding needs to be removed

There are a few things that give me headaches.
1. The path to victory. What is victory in an RPG? Reaching the highest possible level as fast as possible? Beating the story? Why does it always have to be "I am better than you"?
2. Grinding needs respawn. Respawn destroys the believability and immersion of a game world that wants be as alive and realistic as possible - after all the devs want us to live a virtual life in their world. But how can you logically explain and justify constant respawns in such a world? So you either have a believable and immersive world or you have respawns, grinding and "I am better than you".

Also I don't think that grinding can be optional. When you offer the option to get better by grinding then you passively force players to grind. Either you have to fight constant respawning monsters in order to explore areas or the quests are compromised as bosses respawn and there is no consequence to killing them or you meet other players that mock you by having a higher level and you feel forced to compete with them or you are not able to continue the story as you need a higher level and have to grind in order to reach this level.

How to get better without having to grind: play Ultima 6 or Ultima 7 or maybe Ultima 8. There was no grinding in those games and yet you still got better with time. It was a natural flow, the balancing was more thought through, it worked.

 

Ok ill ask again, in Ultima 6,7,8, how did you gain over time? You didn't just stand there in game and get stronger / more proficient, you had to DO something related to the skill you wanted to use. If I am missing something please enlighten me? You have to practice a skill to get better, and if you want to get better faster and be stronger you work harder and longer, hence as you call it a GRIND?

As for having to be stronger to complete harder quests, yes of course Otherwise I would just walk thru Chillblains and get the chest at the end without any trouble. There are other quests that do not require you to kill anything all you have to do is find something.

Once again I do not see what you are asking for please be more specific how you want to be able to gain skills?

 

Exactly the way you stated; related.

Wacking a skeleton over and over with a rusty sword translates to me being able to cast ice shield how?

Casting fireballs at wolves to collect hides equals skilling up my bludgeon skill how?

The first thing to do is eliminate the entire stupid idea of a global skill pool with which to elevate completely non-related skills to the very actions I am repeatedly doing over and over.


Otherwise, yes, I really wish my code writing skills translated directly into engine repair in the real world.

 

I think if you had to train up each skill individually it would make people feel like they are forced to buy an extra character slot, since very few people like to stick to the same skillset indefinately.

 

So my view is that xp should to attached to Invidual trees. You gain xp for that tree by using the abilities gained within, once you level up you then have more points to spend on glyphs/abilities within that specific tree.

Much nicer and more dynamic.

 

I've always preferred EVE Online's system where your character learn skills based on real-time passed, whether in game or not. Select a skill to learn, and 3 days later you have it no matter how much or how little grinding you've done. I like that system because it lets you do whatever you want to do in game without feeling like you're getting behind. If you want to RP for an hour at a tavern, you haven't lost 1-2 levels compared to your friends who were out killing skeletons during that time.

The downside to that system is that older players will always have an advantage over new players. However, with the way the leveling system is designed to be non-linear, this might not be as much of a problem.

 

As far as I can tell this game doesn't really do anything to discourage powerleveling, so the grind to get to a point where your character is decently powerful is actually fairly minimal if you aren't afraid to ask some veterans if you can tag along with them.

Removing Grind from a game is always something that is very easily said, but very hard to define. One man's grind is another man's content.

 

I remember a old mud called MUME where you had a trophy list where all your kills were listed, including other players. First time you willed something you got a "Congratulations! This is the first time you've killed it!" and you got some bonus exp. After that you got normal exp for a while but when you killed enough of them you started to get "yawn" messages instead and you got less exp, once you got 255 kills of a certain monster that monster would not give you exp anymore.

I think SotA would benefit from a similar system.

 

I completely agree that grinding gets really old but I guess I am not sure how you would do an MMO/RPG without some kind of grind.

The RPG part generally requires some kind of advancement, be it skill or level. If I am grinding experience to gain a level or grinding a skill to get a point in that skill, it is still a grind if you approach it that way. When I started UO, I wasn't worried about getting a 7xGM (I didn't think it was even possible when I started). I ran out and fought hind and chopped trees and picked up reagents. Yea, skills went up and attributes increased but that was all a bonus to the fun I was having. Same thing in my earlier level based games. Yea, I knew I got a new ability at the next level but I was out to enjoy the game so again, just another bonus to the fun. Sadly, the more games I play, the more I find I am grinding instead of just enjoying the game. That is my fault in how I am approaching the game. I do know in sandbox games, I tend to spend more time doing "non-leveling" things and luckily I am not in a guild that puts pressure on maintaining a certain amount of leveling requirements.

Unless you have a game that is 100% story based and advancement is tied to your area in the story, not sure how you would get by without a level or skill based advancement which would lead to a grind for some. Yea, you could tie level to the story. As you go along and finish X story quest, you are rewarded by the quest giver with a new ability or an increase in your skill tied to that quest. At that point, you limit your players who chose to "grind" the story, again, maybe not really enjoying the game. I guess you can do both, exp from mobs or advancement with the story so both player types win but how do you mix the two and of course keep them balanced as if not, there would be a lot of complaints of "I have to grind to level as story leveling is too slow" or "I would rather just go kill mobs but I have to do the story instead".

So after all that, I have no suggestions on how to truly get away from grinding.

 

While playing Ultima 6 or 7 or 8 I never felt forced to wander through areas, searching for monsters or waiting for them to respawn in order to get EXP and advance my character. The flow of character advancement was completely different. The balancing in the game was so that you could advance to the next stage in the story or to the next relevant area just by doing quests and exploring. Yes of course there were enemies you had to fight but it felt more "natural". Some fights were harder than others but you never had the feeling of having to go to another area to wait for respawning monsters in order to advance to a level in which you could take on the creatures in the area you wanted to advance the story in.

Many (MMO)RPGs nowadays use grind as a form to advance to the next stage. Take Final Fantasy XIV for example. If I want to get the next quest to advance the story, I need to be a certain level. If my hero hasn't reached this level yet I have to go to the wildnerness and hunt respawning enemies until I reach this level. So the flow of my adventure is disrupted as I cannot continue with the story but instead have to grind.

In the old Ultimas you also found areas that were much too hard for you (I remember running into a cave full of dragons) but you always had some interesting quests to do in order to advance further. Be it side quests or main quests. The flow of doing something was never disrupted by having to grind.

Also seeing others in the game whacking constantly away at enemies that just pop out of nowhere distrupts the atmosphere, immersion and believability of the world.

Another thing: I wander through a forest, kill all the wolves and Kobolds and suddenly, out of nowhere they are back again? Hell, where did they come from? Also, everything I did was for naught? I can never free the forest of the wolves and Kobolds? Does this translate to bossmonsters, too? I can never help the village get rid of the evil Lich? Then why do I do it in the first place?

 

To train your skills... you need to use them? No?
Do you call that grinding... do you call the Ultima Online system grinding?

I actually believe you should be able to use your skills in order to raise them. It makes sense in my world.

So far i have not "grinded" in this game, i am level 35 only, have a house, decorated it, and now working on a sota website... now making that website IS grinding!

 

When I was still playing Pen & Paper RPGs, the adventures I ran with my friends always put them in danger but never forced them to grind. They had to do quests or explore areas and of course they had to fight - even very tough fights, but there was always a flow to it. There was always something "behind" doing what they did, a purpose, a story. There was no grinding. No going to this area, searching for monsters to kill them in order to advance the skills. They advanced while going through the adventure.

Grinding rips you out of the adventure. It puts you into treadmill, something you do over and over again without any deeper purpose to it, without any story to it. It's like working at an assembly belt. The monsters come to you, you whack them and you get better - and this over and over and over again.

And as grinding always needs respawning we get the problem that the believability of the world suffers from magically reappearing creatures.

 

I'm a huge fan of the skill system in UO. Yes training with friends...i gain skill, kill Monster...gain skill. I'm not to forced to search and kill Monster.

This is the way i love.

 

When I am casting fireballs over and over so I can train sword skills, it is more than grinding, it is stupid.

At least with grinding the same "SKILLS" those improve.

Here I can grind any skill and get XP to raise some unrelated skill.

That is better than all the other canned MMOs out there exactly how?

 

Oh i agree!
That is why i prefer the Ultima Online system. Well then, carry on, i agree with you!

 

I also prefer the Ultima Online skill system.

 

Grinding is a necessary component in any rpg. There I said it. I can't think of any rpg where you haven't had to kill creatures in random encounters to toughen up your characters in preparation for attacking a harder area or whatnot.

That being said, grinding for that one set of equipment is not the proper form of grinding....developing your character where you can continue on without having to hope for that 1 in 100 chance he drops a piece of gear is totally different.

I can't think of many rpg's where I haven't leveled up my characters by fighting random mobs, from baldur's gate to old gold box games to ultima itself....

 

I would at least expect (at least for the SP part) that bossmonsters you kill stay dead forever for you and that monsters in scenes only respawn when you leave the scene or when there is a reason for them to respawn - for example spiders hatching from eggs until you destroy the nest.

 

No, that has never been said.

 

Think outside the box. Just because all games have something, doesn't mean this one has to have the same thing.