Grinding needs to be removed

After playing the last releases I realized more and more that grinding does not have a place in this game at all.
It is one of the worst "features" any game can have.
Unfortunately the character progression system we have now supports grinding. Waiting for enemies to magically respawn to kill them over and over again to get EXP in order to advance the character faster than any other, showing off what one has "accomplished"...
Even worse is having to grind in order to advance the story or reach new areas.
Progressing the character should be natural, it should be a flow. It should work while you go along and not while you stay and do the same things over and over again.
Grinding right now is a big negative feature of SotA and I hope that it will be removed completely from the game.

 

Yes I know what you mean Lord Darkmoon, but I am ok with it for now. I think it is testing and testing of the systems.
I don't beleive it will be exactly what the game will be like when completed. So for now I am grinding away to get resources etc to test the crafting and to test the combat.

 

Has it ever been said that grinding is just in the game for testing purposes? If so this would be ok but I somehow fear that it might stay in the game to please the grinding MMO crowd...

 

lol well I hope you are wrong. I do think we need to test stuff to talk about it also. I have a pet peave about that. lol So when I want to avoid it, I make myself get out there so I speak from having done tons of it. Today I was killing tons of stuff and crafting things, which was a bit crazy if I focused on that part or if I thought about it because you had to make this to make that and everything tooks tons of resources and resources are rare and in stingy amounts when you find them, ooooh lol Oh well I have learned a lot and will dig in again tomorrow. So good post to keep the reminders out there about the grinding we were promised we wouldn't have.

 

Only way around XP grinding is to remove XP from repetetive actions (killing the same creature over and over). There is still material and gold grind though. The rewards from quests are virtually non-existent. We need way better rewards from quests to make grinding at least optional.

 

I would still like to see XP gained from the use of skills (each skill tree essentially has a bar/level) rather than just killing stuff for An overall level.

 

That would be especially useful for healers and stealth players who do not want to kill. I mean if I can sneak past enemy I should be rewarded just like I killed him.

 

Grinding is a very cheap feature. Instead of putting time and work into the balancing in order to have the players advance in a natural way, waves and waves of enemies are thrown at them. This is simple and easy to do but it also destroys the immersion and believability of the world.
I am not saying that this is the plan for SotA but as of now we do not really know what they planned in regards to grinding.

 

I am hoping that the story quest can be completed at some medium level.
I imagine we will level quickly at first, just doing starter tasks, discovering the story, deciding what skills we want, and acquiring equipment.
By the time the leveling curve flattens out, we should be as powerful as we need to be.

There will always be people that grind with no purpose other than to say they're the highest level, or have the highest skill, or whatever thing.
Good for them, but I play games to be entertained, and grinding doesn't do it for me.

I want a smooth story arc.

 

I agree with getting rid of grinding. It pretty hard to do with a level based system however.

 

I agree. By the way, I like your Avatar

 

What I love about Dragon Age: Inquisition right now is that your character's progression is enmeshed in journeying through the world and completing quests. In fact, it kind of fades into the background with so much to explore and do. Some of the short quests are mini-grinders but it's not tedious. This is only to say that I hope one can progress well in SotA by moving through the storyline and the quests and not simply looking around for things to kill.

Try working on some of the quests, it might give a different flavor to things. I hope there will be less need to grind when the world is more fleshed out.

But after all, it is a grinder's paradise.

 

Thanks!

Your website is gorgeous, and your name is a cool throwback to UU. You should totally write your SoTA memoirs in an RP blog. =)

 

This is still a very early iteration of the game and thigns like Crafting, farming etc arent in yet. You will be able to gain experience by farming or crafting or what have you as well.
Crafting and gathering and such will also award you experience and cause you to level up.

The level system as it is, however, is actually a minimal grind. Many people want a level of progression but many people also dont want it to take forever of doign stuff to progress.

Once you reach level 30 your good to compete with any other level. The rest of the levels still reward you but the reward isnt great enough that it leaves lower-mid levels in the dust.

It gives the opportunity to continue progressing, but its not neccessary to grind to level 80 to compete with someone who has.

Its essentially a diminishign return on levels. I got to 40 just collecting Hides to sell in town

 

OK for PvP how will you get stronger, fighting each other OVER and OVER - it is the same as grinding, ANY level based system has a grind in it, weather it be walking around stealthy, stealing over and over, casting spells over and over to learn how to do them better is GRINDING, it is what you focus on. Don't want to GRIND. Go kill a few wolves, cut down the trees in the area, mine the ore, harvest the Garlic an GO HOME, make some boards, some weapons, armor, potions. then go steal around town (not in game yet). The only thing wrong with GRINDING is that is what you are focused on, ONE skill. Sorry but if you GRIND it is your choice.

True some different way to skill gain by adding skill use = skill advancement would be nice, BUT IN ORDER TO GET STRONG FAST YOU WILL STILL GRIND IT.

 

Darkmoon, you should raise this question during the story dev session on Monday. You raise a very important point but hopefully it's just an alpha issue - I think they will still be doing a lot of balance here.

 

EvE Online allows you to set a skill to train and it goes up automatically over time (they design it that way to accomodate busy people i think)

Thats the only example i can think where it isnt a physical grind, but its still a grind on time.

in UO there were no levels but you had to grind your skills like mad to get them maxxed.

As long as there are ltos of different ways to progress (Crafting, PvE, PvP, etc) Itll happen naturally. Its gonna be quick in this game, thankfully, where once you reach level 30, levels begin to matter much less, but you can still passivly progress as you do things.

 

You might ask: isn’t grinding ultimately the player’s choice? Why would players choose to grind if it’s not any fun? I think the answer lies in a concept called the Burden of Optimal Play, a term introduced in a great GDC talk about Diablo 3. The speaker, Wyatt Cheng, defined it as “the idea that the player can increase their power level, but that they do so in a way that’s not necessarily enjoyable.”

Here’s how I think of it: Players will tend to make the choices that lead most directly and surely to victory. If you set up a goal that players care about, you should expect them to try to reach it as efficiently as possible. If the most efficient way to win (i.e. optimal play) is a pain in the ass, then you’re asking players to accept a worse experience in exchange for victory, and that’s a crappy way to treat your players. (There are lots of caveats that I could make here, but let’s stick with this simplistic version of the concept for now.)

The Burden of Optimal Play suggests a guideline for game designers: if you want the player to have fun, thenthe most effective path to victory should also be the most fun. Playing well should never result in a worse experience.

 

Right, and thats why SotA is offering various options depending on how you like to play

 

Ok ill make this a little more simple;

Golfers hit 1000's of balls to get good, to lower to a 10 Handicap takes playing 3 rounds a week, fun but still a grind. And there are Drives, Fairway woods, irons, wedges, sand shots, putting, etc. So you have to GRIND each shot type to get good and combine to get a good game. I do not understand what you are asking for?

A Shooter shoots 10 of thosands' of rounds to make sure his hold is steady, Aim True, and Breathing Consistent - Breathing, sight picture and trigger squeeze are it integral parts. Hard to train each individually.

Now as a golfer you can train each skill separately but still do it OVER and OVER to get good and combine them later to get a good game. Is that more along the lines of what you are asking for, to gain skills. A shooter just has to shoot but gains those specific traits needed to get good. truly more of a grind :-(

As for this game and many other there are many MANY different skills, but lets stick with Fighting Skills, as I am sure it will be easier. Crafting is a Whole other monster, many MANY more areas but same principles can be applied.

What do you have here? Defense (Armor / Special Moves / Spells) and Offense (Weapons / Special Moves / Spells) How do you purpose to gain these skills? ATM just go out get skill points and place them where ya want, yeah kinda weak and truly a GRIND.

Armor it is more innate than anything but, Light - Medium - and Heavy, training is just basically wearing them and performing other actions (fighting) Agreed if you train with Medium you should NOT be able to then just move points to be proficient in Heavy.

Now we get to Special Moves - Defensive is Push Back, Defensive Stance, Deflection (for Example) No I go out and chose these and train (OVER and OVER) to get better at these three moves. Again I should not be able to then just move Push Back [pints into Leg Sweep, admittedly some of the skills are similar so should have a little bit of a head start to learn leg sweep but not just move points The same applies to the Special Offensive moves you choose.

Spells they fall along the same lines and most defiantly Armor plays a rolls here as a Negative or positive. But a Paladin should still be able to use Heavy Armor and Heal (or Kill) BUT you still have to Train OVER and OVER and OVER to learn to combine the reagents and make the movements needed to cast spells effectively. And truly if you are training Fire you should DEFFINATLY be able to just move the points into Water and be skilled. As it is an opposite it still should get a boots to start training it but not much.

Now to the MAJOR sticking point you HAVE to train, TRAIN, train over and over in ANY skill to get good and therefore still a GRIND :-( Another issues is you have to have a Limit (CAP) If not over time I could be proficient in WAY to may types of any skill overpower anything. This is where Balancing come in a VERY different topic.

In closing those of you that don't want to grind? What do you want, you still have to train?? How do purpose we get skilled???

I agree on the point of moving points around, BUT??