Guild war - It's all fun until you meet the exploiters

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Antrax Artek, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    What I'm getting out of this thread if I brain-filter all the !!angry!! is:
    The current guild war system is not fit for purpose.

    Reasons:
    • The "war flag" can be avoided via various means (some of which are questionably exploitative)
    • The "war flag" encompasses an entire guild and is the decision of a guild leader to put his/her guild members 'at risk'
      • Could negatively impact guilds that welcome players of all levels/playstyles especially since PvP death includes 'financial loss of stuff
    So I think the first step would be to define - What should a Guild War mean?
    Does it mean all players with a guild tag should be flagged all of the time, wherever they go, should be prevented from playing in private mode for the duration of the war, should be unable to unflag via any means (including party invites, oracle, etc.)? (Basically, it becomes an Open PvP game for the war participants with no recourse). It sounds like this is what is being asked for.

    If we accept the above premise, and the flagging issues get resolved, we need to figure out a way to deal with the following:
    1. Going into private/locked residences /basements using such as a base of operations / safe place
    If this is seen as something we don't want to happen, how would we propose to avoid it with the current game mechanics? It seems to me that this would all be valid in a 'war' scenario but this behavior has been pointed out as (pick an adjective...cowardly, dishonorable, not sporting, whatever). Making sweeping changes to game mechanics (ie, you can't zone while in combat) complicates other aspects of gameplay. Can't zone while PvP flagged...might work. But are we really saying we don't want people to go into their own house if someone's chasing them? Or log off?

    2. Further game mechanics issues (such as banning people from towns)
    Again, limiting this feature has other affects outside the Guild War / PvP space, so how would we solve this problem for the war context?

    It seems to me that the above two points are going to be a significant obstacle to the type of 'war' that is wanted.
    Instead it may be prudent to encourage the narrowing of the battlefield by giving guild wars some sort of zone/arena/thing with objectives in it, rather than trying to make it a world-spanning affair where people are hunted outside their homes, killed while zoning in to places, etc. Otherwise the amount of technical changes that would be required to create the 'fair battle' are a pretty long list and getting all of it changed would likely not be something that could happen quickly.

    All of the issues pointed out seem to be people trying to avoid the fight. In a fully consensual war, where both sides have said "yes, lets have war!" ...why is this even happening? Is it people don't want to be bothered while they're trying to do something other than PvP? is it ransom costs?

    As a side note, if it weren't for ransoms, there'd be little reason not to stand and fight. Should we consider that ransom is a discourager to pvp participation and perhaps deactivate it for wars and come up with some other way of keeping score? I've often heard people say the money they get from ransoms is not much, its no big deal, its nothing, they often give it back / don't claim it ....alright then, why have it? If the goal here is to have fun, engaging pvp in which many people participate I'd say removing barriers to entry would be a good start.
     
  2. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    @kaeshiva
    I agree!
    I think the goal for some is to get at all costs a plaque that shows something and not doing pvp :) fortunately to me and my guildmates it doesn't interest we gladly did the forfeit and gave the plaque, ready for the next war to have fun and not fight with issues and limits of the game.
    Yeah, i agree, most of these changes should affect just PVP Flagged players, changes made for PVP should not affect all playstyles but be targeted to PVP.
     
  3. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Please note that I might not necessarily agree with Port decisions, but rather that I'm giving some background.
    Most of these were with the combat scrum stuff
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/combat-and-pvp-team-update.12621
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f.../pvp-and-combat-changes-blog-for-july-8.12639
    etc

    Where the majority of these items listed in the OP is actually fixes to old exploits/griefing, so it used to be the other way around but those were fixed to what we have today.

    By design.
    This wasn't the case when the guild war system was first implemented. But rather added later as a requested feature since otherwise one wasn't allowed to party up between the pvp/pve divide.
    Guild wars got it by inheritance since all it does is force open PVP, so all 'rules' for open pvp applies to guild wars as well.
    You used to be able to interrupt scrolls but something changed in '16, think it is a bug
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...eing-interrupted-by-combat.73487/#post-718905
    although there were lot of talk of gank-camping back then so could be intentional.

    Has always been the case.
    Been reported over and over through the years. Even Richard was involved in that discussions early on.

    Chris has promised something on this several times, early on it was that you couldn't exit if you had a "taken damage recently" buff which would be for both PVE and PVP. But there were lots of complications when trying to implement so priorities changed.

    So this is the one item on the list that I think they would actually like to change.
    I'd suggest to split it to its own topic and try to get some Chris attention to that.

    By design.
    In early discussions about guild war (telethon talks) both Darkstarr and Chris made it clear that one should always be able to leave/kick from a guild even during war to prevent griefing etc.
    Even revisited during the pvp scrums where a suggestion was to lose a "kill score" if you lost a member. Which was rejected.

    Brought up early and suggestions rejected. So by design.
    It is simply too hard/costly to fix in a player friendly way. This since all suggestions to fix this would be exploitable the other way around. ie if you would add anything that would remove an early advantage then that could be used by the losing side to avoid a loss.
    Hence the lesser of two evils and all of that jazz...

    By design.
    The fix was the stun timer.

    What has been suggested though multiple times is to make the stun timer longer and some more visible gfx while it is happening (like the P-key empty lot gas marker). So I'd suggest a separate topic repeating that suggestion.

    By design.
    It used to be the other way around. You used to be able to snipe people while in their homes. Very popular vs folks who did both crafting and pvp, like Net at that time. Since that was easily exploited for griefing it was fixed to the way we have it now.

    Why it feels like a magic wall is because it kinda is. It comes with the house definitions. This since early on it would depend on the actual objects etc (kinda like cover), but that was exploited.
    The most fun one was the temporary blocking of ports used for gfx object load. Then they would run straight into your home regardless if locked and then when inside would umblock the port and viola they would be in your home - gankity gankity gank.
     
  4. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    @Antrax Artek

    Funnily enough it was mentioned as a question in the livestream last week and Chris sounded surprised that this was still happening. :p Like I thought.
    So I think that he tried to solve it then got distracted and then after a while had some shady memory of fixing it so it must have been done.

    Which means that this one really is one of those things where I would recommend to simply keep reminding him and reminding him and reminding him. Because clearly this was something that he wanted fixed and thought was fixed. So it is just a matter of getting it to become a priority.
    While it would really really improve the game (mostly for pvp but also for pve) if it was implemented right.
     
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  5. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    Or it didn't work, or got broken by something else. Sounds like a squeaky wheel moment.
     
  6. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    I always vote for getting rid of ransom and creating more fun and interesting pvp in this game. Such as titles with bonuses, pvp quests, a more in depth fun bounty system and where the hell is our raid system?
     
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  7. Sentinel2

    Sentinel2 Avatar

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    cough cough.

    We're making one for Ashes of Creation. A raiding system. Also Castle Sieges and a couple other fun tidbits moving forward. Would be nice to see that here as well ;-)

    Oh and AOC is moving to Steam Early Access next week. The battle royale part at least. The primary goal is to get that all working before building the rest of the game.

    Ok I know. Shameless plug.

    Love Novia since R1. But can you blame me ;-)
     
  8. Bedawyn

    Bedawyn Avatar

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    That part worries me --- the IF it was implemented right. This could be very very unpleasant for low-level players. Not all scenes are clearly labeled so that you can avoid them until you're ready. I've been whomped on within seconds of arrival in PVE scenes too many times to like the idea that you can't escape when you most need to. Even if they are clearly labeled -- what happened to encouraging people to challenge themselves? How many people will take a risk if once they're in a scene and find out the hard way that they can't handle it yet, they don't have any way to get out?
     
  9. Sara Dreygon

    Sara Dreygon Avatar

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    Just an FYI for @Antrax Artek that if fixed, there would be the unintended effect that Antrax Army guildies could no longer do this.
     
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  10. Pawz

    Pawz Avatar

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    Is this the post about a small group of PVPers that murdered some big PVP guild? I thought that ended months ago?
     
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  11. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Agreed and correct.

    The original suggestion from players was a level req so that the buff would only be for players >X level.
    It was also only for interactive fast travel stuff, like boats/ladders/wagons/vines/etc, not for running off the edge of a scene.


    I ignored the drama part and focused on the feature requests where a few were valid ones not by design. And since one of those features was talked about by Chris I bumped it. So it wasn’t my purpose to rekindle the drama but rather advocate one of the feature requests.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
  12. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    To be honest I really don't understand what you're referring to, if you're talking about our last guild war opponents trying to win the swimming championship and click on boats, basements, exits while close to death, well, i'm glad that it will be fixed.
    Unfortunately what is not fixed is the undisputed protagonist of the war, unflagging when you're forced pvp flagged taking advantage of the party system. From what I've seen this is an unintended effect that you like more overall.

    Man, do I have to teach you everything?:D
    First of all PVPer implies that you fight and murdered means that none of the "big guild" you mentioned keep pwning you day and night everytime you show your face in the fall (which is currently what is happening).
    You can always fix the message "Is this the post about a small group of exploiters that made a big guild forfeit a war exasperated by countless abused bugs? I thought that ended months ago?"

    The brotherhood of thumbs up seems very active anyway :p.

    PS: @Pawz would you ever call those who abused the poison bug for free crafting xp "crafters"? I would not. And things are pretty similar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  13. sotasota4

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    this is a sota - a place where CHEATERS are praised, and abuse of BUGS is the way to avoid discrimination ))
     
  14. nikkon78

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    PVPers in Sota are allmost gankers. Last night i go to New Heaven and fortget to unflag me ( if i grind alone around i allways flag me to get the the 10% + 10% for open Scene exp BUFF ) The Scene was loading and in some seconds Antrax and Rixa Utima attack me. i click on boat to leave this Scene but the dots kills me bevor i can leave. And the best was Rixa gets my damn ring and i Need to pay 5500 Gold to get them back. It's so stupide to run every time to Oracel and renew Protection. But it's a Need then the first 13 of the pvp leaderbord like it to gank peoples that are much ADV Level deeper. I hate PVP in this game , you cant balance that with this big diffrents betwen ADV Levels. It's the same you farm some Wood or carpasse, you will by genked x times in the day.
     
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  15. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Avatar

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    Yeah, but you were flagged for PVP...how is that "ganking" you?
     
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  16. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    Man, I think I understand who you are, sincerely said you can't expect that in the middle of a pvp fight when you're you move suspiciously near the dock using stealth none will attack you.
    We never attack people who look at the shops or are in new heaven just visiting, but when we see someone entering and leaving the map, hiding in a suspicious way, well, it's like asking to be killed.

    BTW what's ur adventuring level?

    Edit: When someone is friendly and not willing to fight, can always type a big "Hello" in zone chat, none will come to attack you ;)
     
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  17. nikkon78

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    the only reason why i hide me was that you both run direkt to my :), hiding was my hope that i come out ther bevor i got killed with no Chance to defeat me.
    i'm happy that you dont use hide to come to the dock ( like Vesper Style)
    my Level is 115 but im a pve Player.
    after all the time in this game im so frustrating from peoples like Vesper, Giuseppe Pantone and Gradydios or what his Name is, from all this kills when you mine a node or farm a carpasse or Wood, obsichips.
    With the price level atm you need to go farm this stuff in the pvp zones and thous guys now that they easy can farm low or pve Players to get Leaderbord Points.
     
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  18. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    I'm level 114, and i'm 1st in the pvp chart, so i would say is not the level difference but the build/deck that is not suited for pvp.
    My suggestion is to never hide but greet people in the map if there are more pvp flagged players, in this way everyone will understand you're friendly and none will run to you. Stealthing is usually something someone who wants to pickpocket or sneak attack does.
    If you need some pvp traning let me know, i'll be happy to help, and when Vesper comes same let me know, you will see how he will run fast from the map to my entrance.

    Will send you a refund for your ring when in game.
     
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  19. Pawz

    Pawz Avatar

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    I don't know what that bug is, but no I would never want anyone to benefit from any bug. From the forum posts, it sounded like you guys were just getting your asses kicked by better strategy vs zerging? I wasn't there though, so who knows? I only like watching the PVP tourneys. Those are pretty fun. You guys should have more of those! :)
     
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  20. Antrax Artek

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    Apparently you misunderstood, lmao zerging, you got the wrong guild :D
    In any case, what you said is what they wanted people to think, seems they only succeeded with you haha