How should we represent a guild coat of arms?

Some of you may have seen the arms Ronan designed for towns in a recent hangout.
You will know they are the arms of a settlement because of the mural crown we're going to put on top of the arms.



We'd like to get the public's opinion on how to distinguish a guild coat of arms.
Two ideas we had were to surround the coat of arms with a wreath, or to top it with a cloth cap.
The hat I show below is called a cap of maintenance, but several other cloth caps could be used.
We also could use any of several types of wreath.



Please let us know what you think!

 

Why not have different "additions" to the guild coat of arms depending of what style of guild they are: Army, Crafters/Merchants, Brigands ? So you can have swords or victory -wreath (the middle one of the three you posted) for an Army, the cap could be for a crafter/merchant guild, etc.

Anyhow, I appreciate the ideas you guys bring to the game's guild system.

 

You can play with it, but to me it's premature. A guild may be associated with some kind of city, faction, or virtue. There may be some kind of lord / vassal system.

 

Out of the 3, I like the middle one.

I like the idea of being able to somehow differentiate them per guild type.

 

I like the arms of settlement designs.


Out of the 3 guild designs, I prefer the middle one.

I like the idea of being able to somehow differentiate them per guild type.

As well as wreaths,
Perhaps ribbons, ornaments or medals with different meanings could be made to 'add' to the wreaths. (Like the roses or another configuration)

Ribbons could differ guilds for: PvP, Factions, etc.
Ornaments and medals could be made for: Virtue, Different Crafts or Skills, etc.

 

I like the cap better then wreath personally. As far as the mentions of signifying different types of guilds, i think that should be captured more in the heraldry itself.

 

I voted wreath based off of the middle one in the three (2 wreaths 1 cap)... the one without flowers.

 

I think the wreath in the middle would be the best choice

 

Ok. Just to clarify:
We're voting for "some sort of wreath" or "some kind of cap". We're not voting for a specific wreath, or a specific cap.
Perhaps it would be up to the guild what type best represents them.

And the third choice is saying we're open to other ideas.

 

I'm not sure a cap would appeal to many guilds. The wreath certainly looks more traditional.

 

My suggestion in the chat we had, was to use a wreath to signify "a group" (could also be used for, for instance, the Founders, or Benefactors, or the ONBE), and the cap reserved for chartered (mechanical, ie, guildstone, shows up by your name yadda yadda) guilds. Thus, a 'chartered' guild would be able to choose from a wreath, a cap, or both, as they prefer, allowing for maximum flexibility.

I like the idea of representing the type of guild! Perhaps a color code for the cap or decorations on a wreath? There are several versions that have either flowers as shown above, or that are 'wrapped' in ribbons. Black=General Combat, Red=PvP, Yellow=Crafting or Artistic (poet's circle comes to mind) , Blue=RP, Green=Casual/Social, or something of that nature?

 

I really appreciate what you all are doing, and great job. imho, I may be misreading the context, but Shoudn't the guild have a choice as to exactly how they are represented? I mean, not all guilds may want to adhere to the critical norm. For instance, the jolly roger, or a design of their choosing to go on a flag, or just a dragon, kraken, or lion's head, a lunar rift , etc etc. I keep thinking of the founder's cloak and shield with the lunar eclipse of daedalus and the sun. Shouldn't there be the option to have something considerably similar for guilds choose from?

 

Guilds can represent themselves in any manner they choose, but the College of Arms was created to do this heraldry thing the traditional way.

I don't know if Portalarium will allow creating flags, banners, shield painting, cloaks that are just user designed art. It's beyond our scope.

So, if a group wants to fly a flag that doesn't follow the rules of heraldry, that's fine with me (us). They just wouldn't be registered with the College.

But, for arms registered with the college, there will be rules.

 

I think what they are trying to do is to make it so that the guild's coat of arms is still totally up to the guilds (within a reasonable set of boundaries). So, the guilds still create the design and symbolism... But the wreath (or cap, or whatever) is sort of like an official border that signifies to everybody that the arms you're looking at is for a group, not an individual.

Like... When you look at an individual's coat of arms, it is just the shield by itself, but if you see a shield surrounded by a wreath, that means what you are seeing inside of the wreath stands for a group of people and not any one person.

One example they referred to during a heraldry Hangout was Prince William and Kate Middleton(?)'s arms:



William's arms is real, of course, because he's royalty/etc. If you look at #3 (bottom left corner), it says "A blue garter bearing the words Honi soit qui mal y pense - Shame to those who think evil of it. William is a Knight Companion of the Order of the Garter, the highest order of chivalry." <-- so, the blue border around his arms is a symbol that he belongs to an exclusive group. All other people who belong to that group also have that blue border around their arms. However, the arms found on the shield inside of the blue garter, are unique to each individual (so that is a bit different than what the College of Arms is suggesting).

Now, if you look at Kate's "arms" (which are just sort of made up because she's not from aristocracy, I guess), you will see they just used a wreath so that it didn't look funny without anything in that space. The wreath is a space-filling substitute for the blue border used to signify that William belonged to a group. I think this is why the College of Arms is thinking about using a wreath, because it can easily signal "group" through sight alone, and still leaves room for variety in things like colors (see NirAntae's post above for what I mean...)

While I know a "cap" is more historically accurate (according to what Adiun was saying), I just think the wreath looks better and I like how changing its color could easily signify important things. For this reason, I select "some kind of wreath", but I am open to arguments for other things (including the cap).

 

I definitely like the idea of a wreath, but I really respect what DavenRock says about the guild choosing. We have always been a guild open to all, and hence I abhor strict labels like combat, magic, crafting etc. Silly. If a guild has members that do it all, why limit the heraldry? But anyway, the wreath idea looks good IMO.

For those RPers out there, particularly those with a nefarious bend, surely you wouldn't want to be flagged red assassins for all the world to see. If you are a stealthy assassin guild wouldn't you want a nice fluffy tag like "Tailors" or "Free Hugs"?

 

Any kind of guild-type-signifying additions like ribbon colors would be purely voluntary... it would be a system by which you can display what your guild is about if you want. (And also, guilds open-to-all like you describe are exactly why I added a casual/social guild color in my tentative suggestion. )

And as Kuno very rightly said, we're talking about a "standard" addition to the arms that would signify 'this is a group arms, not an individual'. If you look on the CoA gallery page, down at the bottom is a section for arms from Communities. What we are talking about would be adding something (wreath, cap, or both) to the existing arms that would signify "this is a group". Also, it wouldn't be "this style of wreath" or "this style of cap", it would be ANY wreath or cloth cap, unless there are specific ones reserved for specific meanings/purposes eventually, at which point it would be "any other style".

 

I like the way the wreaths look, and the idea that different wreaths can mean different things. Choosing "none" for wreath, at the guild level, could also be an option (and possibly have its own meaning).

Hopefully different orders will also have signifiers for their groups. Those inducted into the ONBE could be part of the knight's order, just as Prince William's coat shows above.

Hmm... does that mean Dame Lori is part of the Order of the Garter? lol

 

Choosing "none" at the guild level would sort of be like saying, "we don't want strangers to know we're a guild."
I would imagine ONBE will be some sort of pendant.

edit - Obviously, ONBE will be a ribbon of blue, yellow, and red.
double edit-When I prodded LB to come up with names for orders, he changed the subject.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Subvertive. But since the wreath would only show in certain circumstances (guildstone? plaques?), and the emblazon itself (not including the wreath) would be used for shields, tabards, tapestry, etc, its really won't matter much in the long run.

I'm not sure of that at all. The medallion, and its ribbon, are the physical reward bestowed when you are entered into the ONBE. The medallion is based on that awarded in RL. However, the garter is the designator in the crest above; why not continue a similar tradition? Plus, it would be very difficult to read if text was added to a tri-colored ribbon, at it was to the garter above.

 

We absolutely could do it the way you suggest. However, consider the Order of the Thistle (which is what I had in mind):

Order of the British Empire is kind of a hybrid, having both words on the ribbon, and a medal:
Order of the Bath is similar.