In regards to the "distracting" nature of the deck system:

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Strumshot, May 11, 2015.

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  1. Strumshot

    Strumshot Avatar

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    Through much reading - aside from the younger crowd playing for an hour and responding "this is stupid" - the only true complaint I hear between the lines is that the deck system is too distracting. I can agree. I believe the goals of the system - to be dynamic and decision-based - are spot on; at the expense of being quite cumbersome at times - particularly for ranged/caster builds. The argument against changing it are that it's either back to the good-ol' hotbar system , or to a costly full rewrite; which is cumbersome for the developers. It seems we have a battle of the cumbersomenesseses. (Yes, that's a word.)

    May I propose a compromise that can be addressed solely through UI changes and provide just a dash more maneuverability for ranged players without having to use a wholly locked deck?

    [​IMG]

    Have the deck visually stack: slot a, slot b, slot c... and have the player assign a glyph to a column/slot statically. Thrust in column 1 (hotkey 1), heal in column 4 (hotkey 4). The cards can still deal up at random and redundant cards simply stack underneath, and locked glyphs can still apply (this effect may actually look like a deck as well!) The dealt cards will simply show up only in their appropriate slot. Holding shift or clicking the "stack!" button will combine the top two cards, while not holding shift - or clicking the glyph -just uses the top. Then, whenever a combo is available, a larger, low-alpha combo glyph shows up somewhere over/near the player indicating that a traditionally (dragging) activated combo is available. This will force combos to be still slightly more interactive (user-input heavy) than just hotkeys, but without distracting quite as much. Also a player can learn/arrange their favorite hotkey arrangement, but will still need to keep a slight eye on the bar for availability.


    Currently, when trying to use hotkeys, using 1-0 is just too cumbersome, and pressing r-9-4-4 is WAY too cumbersome. The only alternative for casters seems to be full hotbar focus and all-mouse, which is not o.k., or a wholly locked deck which sacrifices much! I think the sacrifice level is appropriate, but only if a dynamic deck is actually usable.

    I think something like this could be handled ENTIRELY in the UI (plus a few minor logic operations) and make the deck system not only less cumbersome but more intuitive and interactive as well. Thoughts?

    edit: updated for latest iteration of idea and added image
     
  2. Aetrion

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    The problem is that people are buying into this argument of "Hotbars are lame" like it's the input method that is to blame for unimaginative ability design.

    Trying to change how abilities are activated doesn't fix anything. It doesn't make the system more dynamic or decision based in any way. When you're playing SotA you aren't making decisions based on what Glyphs you have on your hand, you know exactly what your deck is supposed to do, you're just wrangling a belligerent hotbar to make it do so. This hasn't improved "standard rotation" combat in any damn way, all it has done is make standard rotations obnoxious to execute.

    In fact SotAs abilities are more vanilla and boring than pretty much every random WoW clone out there. The fact that they couldn't design a single ability to depend on timing or escalation because of the draw system actually significantly reduced the complexity of the combat system.


    At no point in SotA combat do you actually make real decisions. There is never a point where you have mutually exclusive courses of action that lead you to different outcomes, and could lead you to defeat or victory. All you do is play a little tile matching game to try and get your deck to do the one thing it is built to do. All the real decisions are made while you build the deck.
     
  3. tekkamansoul

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    This is a very common suggestion.

    We've been pushing to have the interface for the glyph system changed for the last few months to no avail.
     
  4. Umbrae

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    Not really sure why people rail against the system. I somehow locked my glyphs like 5 releases ago and its no different than a typical hotbar. I honestly haven't been able to play long enough to figure out how to unlock it to play the way its intended to be. However, point is, if you don't like the distracting card system there is no reason to really use it and then it functions like any other game with icons in the bottom row.
     
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  5. TantX

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    1. Arbitrary penalties placed on locked decks and enforcement of investing points into worthless prereqs to gain access to other skills that are pertinent to a locked deck (this is a flaw of the entire skill tree system of SotA, anyway, which has been voiced in a few recent threads). It ends up taking a selling point ("Make any character you want!") and turns it into "So long as it's from these three templates."

    2. With a focus on making the hybrid/random deck work, other combat elements (dynamic mobs, counters/blocks, engaging combat) must be overlooked and put aside because they cannot coexist with the random deck. That means the "boring hotbar" is even more dull because unlike other games with hotbars, SotA does not have engaging mob AI or interesting combat features other than stand there and beat up the mob.

    3. Disadvantages of locked hotbar vs. random/hybrid deck are numerous (see 1) but also in just how quickly you can chain attacks, combo and stack. However, some templates and skill sets work better with hybrid decks than others, but it doesn't mean that some templates using locked and some templates using hybrid/random are still equal; those templates that use hybrid are just stronger than those that require reliable skill availability (again, see 1 about limited practical templates).

    There are others, but those are the focal points of most issues with the locked hotbar that have come up in the last year.
     
  6. Aetrion

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    Yup, this is actually the biggest issue with it. The fact that they tried to put all the gameplay into just simply activating your abilities means that they ended up with some of the most boring abilities in any MMO, simply because nothing in SotA can ever be situational or reactive, or have escalations or synergies, or pose a resource challenge. All the things that make real time combat interesting had to be stripped out to allow for the draw system to be in the game, and the draw system simply isn't better.

    SotA hasn't gotten rid of boring "hotbar combat", it has made it worse. The actual abilities and interactions with your targets are less interesting than ever. It's the pinacle of hotbar combat if anything, because you are now actually fighting your hotbar, and not the monster.
     
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  7. Umbrae

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    This could be the rub. I don't think the combat system is designed to be a real time combat system. It is an abstraction (sometimes called phase time) to account for lag since SOTA isn't supposed to be an MMO game with everything running over the pipes in real time. Personally, I would have preferred a pure turn based system myself, which I think could work in a multiplayer game like SOTA but granted would have probably gain more negativity from UO people than the deck system. :)
     
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  8. Aetrion

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    If it was a semi turn based system like Baldur's Gate or something like that where there is just a timer ticking down until you can take your next action it still would need a much greater and more interesting variety of glyphs to even begin to have the appeal of a TCG. There is just nothing there right now that really makes you think.
     
  9. ThurisazSheol

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    *sigh* this again?

    dewd -

    1. from what i could tell it was not penalties on the static/locked decks, only player perceived penalties because of the unlocked deck perks you get for the added frustration of not having it static and available the instant the use timer runs out. having to focus more on the bar than on the combat, just sucks and everyone knows it...so there should be some sort of compensation for that. people need to get over themselves in this regard and understand that it is NOT a penalty for the locked deck, and it does NOT overpower people to use the other deck subsystem.

    2. i'd rather wait until some time AFTER systems-complete rolls...before i start throwing those types of accusations around. as it CURRENTLY stands, you are correct, but we do not know what the future holds, yet, for this.

    3. again, see 1. it is not a disadvantage. it is risk for reward. if you choose not to have the risk, you won't get the reward. you are not penalized for this decision in any way, because it it YOUR CHOICE. there is ZERO reason for anyone to give you extra reward for no extra risk. the logic just does not parse.



    i'm not saying that i like one way better. i think they both kinda suck in their own right. back to the point of the thread, however, i do think a UI change is a step in the right direction. also, if there was some sort of engagement in the actual combat to where you MUST focus on the swords swinging, and prep for casting...then i'd even see a reason to add MORE reward to the random deck system, as the risk would be that much greater for those who focus moreso on the decks than the combat.

    i still want there to be a no-combat style, where you run around as a diplomat instead of an adventurer, and just stay away from the fights. i'd feel better letting my son play if that were the case.
     
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  10. TantX

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    Yes, "this again," because it's been an issue since this time two years ago and the fears became a reality.

    If it's a sucky system, why not make a better system, then? If people don't like the card system, then they pick the locked hotbar, and it isn't as fun. I've already explained that, as have about 45 other people in the last month alone. Good combat systems aren't based on, "Well, this one sucks in this way, and this one sucks in that way, but they're both equally sucky in their own ways." You don't sell a products that suck and are only comparatively "better" against themselves; people will just go across the street to the next shop that sells the same product that's good.

    We're in alpha. Beta is feature complete, where we don't change anything major but polish and tweak instead. When else should we discuss changes, then, being we're also a year behind initial launch date?

    That's the thing, that's not "risk vs. reward." RvR is when you risk your property - gear, gold, XP, resources, time - for an increased reward based on that amount of risk (better rewards for fighting in an area where PKers can kill and blind loot you). RvR is not, "You can play with a normal hotbar against boring NPCs that cannot possibly become more dynamic because the random deck would be inadequate to fight them as well as fall short of killing cookie-cutter hybrid templates that min-max DPS glyphs against your limited repertoire of locked glyphs." It's boring, dude. It's atrocious. "Look at all the skills you can build a character with! ... now pick ten." Oh, but you can switch decks - if you throw down so many points in Focus that you can't afford to pick up anymore skills to actually make a second locked deck.

    It's a terrible system. Again, your definition of "Risk v Reward" is not the definition of "Risk vs Reward." You're saying "Pick this boring, castrated locked hotbar or this ridiculous, inane whack-a-mole system that takes all strategy and tactics out of the actual battle itself." We shouldn't have to pick between two bad systems, but just play one good (or dare I say, great) combat system. I can't get my money back, but I can sure spend my time more wisely than picking between two god-awful combat systems to fight uninteresting mobs.
     
  11. Freeman

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    Except... it doesn't. And that we've been having this conversation, literally, you and me, for two years... I mean... you still can't understand all our complaints with it?

    People rail against the system because:

    1) It's not a Lord British immersive element. It's more card game, less combat vibe. It being such a BIG part of RPG's you'd expect it to be a center piece of that style of game-play.

    2) It diminishes the act of player skill during combat. It doesn't remove it, but it does mean RNG is far more important than it is anywhere else, unless (and this is important) they balance the locked cards to be equal in power. They haven't done that yet because, and this is according to the devs, people would be unlikely to use it. Keep that in mind, they say the system is more fun, bu they have to strong arm people into trying it. It just doesn't sit right.

    3) Even when they're balanced, it means that the system that is more natural, and more desirable, has to be held back to random standards of play for balance. It's not a one or the other without consequences. Dynamic decks affect all parts of the game, from monster balance, to how the locked deck actually plays.

    4) This system actually exacerbates the problem of spamming attacks. In other games a small selection of skills are used because they're the most effective, but if interesting situations were created that required different skills they'd get used. In this case having a minimum amount of skills in your deck is important for it to behave how you want it when you want it. That's deck design 101.

    5) The combos (which I thought for sure would be the thing that made me come back here and say "I was wrong!") actually make it worse some how. I was glancing at the combat bar before, I have to literally watch it, and not the action now. It's made it a card game with some interesting takes of leveling (again an leveling, deck building game for iOS would be awesome... do that with this!) and tried to make it an action RPG instead of an action RPG with some interesting takes of cards. Subtle difference, but a meaningful one.

    Those are the bullet points, but I can dig deeper on any of them if you need more context.

    And some people are probably thinking that I said I wasn't going to rail on combat anymore... but hey. It's pre-alpha. Things change. Don't lawyer me bro.
     
  12. redfish

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    Yea, I just flatly disagree with the comments that the glyphs you activate don't matter, and it doesn't matter what choices you make in battle after you build your deck. I created a whole thread on light armor combat to make the point that it does matter. With light armor, sometimes you need to focus on defense and other times on offense, and bad choices have opportunity costs. How you fight with multiple enemies has to be different than with single enemies.

    It could be better, maybe, but the idea that there isn't tactics with hotbar combat is just plain wrong.
     
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  13. redfish

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    Btw, Chris once commented something along the likes that in the future, you'll be able to make combos with almost any two glyphs on your hotbar ... which should increase the amount of tactics involved, because you'll have more choices to make.
     
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  14. Freeman

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    If everyone is special, then no one is special.

    So, you built a deck that requires you to pay attention, when other people have built successful decks that don't. I wonder which one will get used more?
     
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  15. redfish

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    I'm not sure why you have a problem with more combos; it just extends the range of the skills you already have.

    If there are decks where you don't have to pay attention to be successful then the devs just have to make sure there are appropriate costs or tradeoffs, and that you do have to pay attention. But its not a problem with the deck system in itself, just designing it correctly. I haven't branched out too much from my style, but I've heard from others one of the most successful decks, with death magic, is overpowered and that's a problem in itself. (Or has that changed?)

    I've heard from other magic users that stacking your glyphs is really important, though, which seems to me to require some tactics. As well as choosing between reagent-using spells and non-reagent-using spells.
     
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  16. TantX

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    Assuming those combos are useful, which so far, they aren't.

    Last I heard, Death doesn't have the same oomph it did two Releases ago, but I think it still is strong. DPS and DoTs from Fire seem to be key, from what I've heard and watched.

    Choice does not equal tactics just because it's choice. It has to be a meaningful choice. If I get 3 cards that I can start stacking into a nuke, sure, I have the choice to:

    A) Stack them; or

    B) Use them individually; or

    C) Combo them.

    Stacking makes the most sense because you get more bang for your buck at a lower cost. Some spells lend themselves to that. It isn't tactics to take those spells and only stack them; that's what they're designed for. It's like taking a war hammer to paint a Bob Ross scene: you have the choice to use the bludgeon or something else, but it isn't really a choice. Other spells are better chaining quickly, rapid-firing them for continuous DPS while you stack up your nukes. Again, that's not tactics; you're just responding to the game feeding you mole heads out of holes. You wouldn't pick up a bow and charge into a melee to be effective, and you won't chain nuke spells to spend all your Focus quickly without getting the most out of them.

    The combat system never makes you think or balance options, because you cannot. You can't be put into a situation where you have to determine whether to knock the guy down or knock them back or anything like that. If you have it, do it. That's all. I have damage, cast damage. I have something to keep distance from your sword, I cast it. It's very easy to break it down to its lowest common denominator extremely quickly.

    Now combos are where that might change. Granted, combos don't apply to the locked hotbar plebs, but here's the catch: for the combo, I have to have two appropriate glyphs. Some combos are just more damage, but hell, stacks can pull that off just fine and at any time I've got multiples. Those that have special status effects, are those effects practical? Are they meaningful enough to trade the extra damage from a stack (or simultaneously two stacks, or stacking one and chaining the other)? Additionally, I have to stack the combos for them to be effective, so that's consistently see-sawing two glyphs to get it to be powerful enough to use, hoping I have them to begin with (and therefore something I can't tactically rely on as an option).

    Or, I can just quickly stack two different nukes and chain DPS, gusts, and mezzes with the other glyphs. So while the concept sounds tactical, the practical application does not work as soon as a min-maxer touches it. If you make combos too powerful, then that's even more RNG: whoever gets lucky to pull off their stacked combo first for the insta-kill wins. Chain heals in the meantime, bubs. That's of course not considering that locked hotbars can't combo or stack, anyway, so that's cool.
     
  17. redfish

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    @Dewderonomy,

    I would think it would depend on whether you want to take the chance of your glyph coming up before others disappear, or if you want to take the time to stack rather than do other things that would be more to your immediate advantage.

    Anyway, the combos in the light armor deck I'm using are useful. For example, Smoldering Shiv can be used to target a second enemy and whittle down his health while you're focusing on a primary enemy. Its a long lasting, slow damage attack which can stack with other DOT. Flaming Bash does less DOT than Flame Fist, but uses less focus and gives you the stun. Sawblade Sweep adds more damage to multi-target attacks, though not really more useful for single target attacks, but you don't always want to wait for it to come up. And there are others that are useful like that in that you have to make decisions whether you want to wait and take a chance or attack right away. So yes, I think there can be some that are more useful than others, and possibly meaningful choices if you're required to choose between two combos.

    I hope to also see terrain affect tactics in the future. Cover, enhancing spells, etc.
     
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  18. Strumshot

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    To this I would say that the ability design is more admittedly in alpha, and VERY easily expandable/modular. I started this thread primarily to try to address a compromise between common complaints of a system that shows no sign of being temporary or modular. I don't at all disagree with you, but regardless of how awesome a skill and combat system is, if its hard to physically manage, it won't be fun. I think a very minor UI change can lighten the weight of the deck system and let us get a better look at the combat system today and as we move along through the expansion of it.
     
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  19. Beaumaris

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    I agree that the deck can be distracting by its nature. It requires watching that bar even more than what we have had to do in some other games. I wonder if a 'heads up display' system could be implemented to flash deck cards on the screen elsewhere. I sort of envision it like seeing gypsy virtue fortune telling cards somehow appearing, giving some foreknowledge of what skills I might expect to draw next, without looking at the details of the bar at the bottom. Dunno how it could work and not be distracting though.
     
  20. TantX

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    I just spammed Off-Hand Attack and killed 12 things in about 45 seconds. Then I stopped playing.

    I will say your template sounds like it could be interesting. How does it stand up in world/open PvP (aka, not a confined basement somewhere)? What do you do to make it work?
     
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