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Let's talk about combat!

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Chris, Nov 27, 2013.

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  1. smack

    smack Avatar

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    My personal opinion is thta the traditional hotbar is exactly that. It has no elements of the new system. However, I left it open to allowing combos so even though these are all locked skills in the traditional sense, they are not Noble since this traditional system has no elements from the new system, not even Focus Skills.


    I'm trying to keep both systems as clean of each other as possible. This rewards players who want to plate spin and allow randomness in their combat actions and on the flip side, gives anyone who doesn't want that the ability to regain full control of skills, when they use them and how they use them.

    The balancing factor is in keeping the number of available hotbar slots limited. Both types of players start with 6. Traditional combat players are thus limited to only 6 skills during combat and must re-configure them manually. Deck combat players are also limited to 6 slots initially, but can use up to 12 skills initially but their deal is random. As players advance, they both can increase the number of hotbar slots. The Traditional combat player can increase the number of his hotbar slots via some skill or more likely, is simply tied to their level, which increases the number of available skills he can use during combat, which again, needs to be configured manually. Deck combat players gain more hotbar slots via skills and levels, but their deck size also grows, which means their available skills that are dealt randomly also grows.

    As far as combos, I'm leaving that open but if I were to keep both systems entirely mutually exclusive of each other, no combos for Traditional players. I only mentioned it in my previous post to encourage discussion around it for balancing purposes.
     
  2. vjek

    vjek Avatar

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  3. aevans

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    My current understanding (and some assumptions) is that a Level 1 character will have a minimum of 10 slots to fill in a Deck. You can only put active skill in the Deck, so you would need to spend 10 skill points on active skills to fill your deck. You are also allowed to stack multiple copies of a skill in the same Deck. If you spend 5 skill points on Blade Combat - Thrust, and 5 skill points on Shield Combat - Deflect, you could stack your Deck with only those two choices of active skills. Your 6 slots will have some combination of those two skills, all in random locations and random distributions.

    Assuming a maximum of 5 skill levels per skill, a Level 20 character with a minimum Deck size of 30 slots, and the minimum of 8 combat slots, can stack their Deck with only 6 different active skills. You are gaurenteed to have multiple copies of at least one single skill on the combat bar at any given time, but there is no gaurentee that you will have the skill you want. Still random, but with a smaller pool. Worst case is that you have 5 copies of your least useful skill at that time, and 3 copies of your second least useful skill.

    By that time you are most likely already going to have 2 of those skill slots locked. You can buy a skill level to gain a ninth slot and lock a 3rd slot on the combat bar. 3 locked slots, 6 random. The latter still being populated from the remaining 27 Deck slots of which you still have stacked at 6 unique active skills.

    Just one possibilty. I don't know how it compares - in practice - to a more traditional combat bar or less stacked Decks.
     
  4. G Din

    G Din Avatar

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    Bah, setup a nice little combat system like GW2 and get on with the rest of the game (setting up PvP and content).
     
  5. smack

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    Hehe yeah, but it doesn't hurt to keep trying and gathering further support for ideas. I think the tweaks we're offering aren't throwing away the entire system, which some people I'm sure would certainly want. In either your or my hybrid system, or even the one where I suggested just to give us both, are still keeping in line with their vision for the new combat system: deck building, skill management, random deals, plate spinning, second chances, and luck to some degree. Those are all still there.

    I think the intent of our suggestions is to reward players who want to use the new system. The devs talk about easing players into the system given how they're designing it by limiting slot availability and deck sizes in the early game. This proposal also serves that purpose.
     
  6. Freeman

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    The thing with a hybrid system is they already have that planned essentially. They're going to twist the dials based on feedback of the system, and expect it to be less dramatic than it's presented today, but not WoW either.

    The thing is.... some of us have a problem with the core concept. It's like trying to adjust the tempeture of the water by tweaking the hot and cold knobs when the person in the stream is saying "I don't want to get wet." There's no temperature they're going to find that works for us.

    To some extent, that's fine. Nothing pleases 100% of everybody. But as someone who'd rather not get wet, it's not something easy to just say "Huh, then I guess I just flushed several hundred dolars on a game that I won't play past the first day because I really, really, really have no interest in this as a game mechanic."
     
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  7. smack

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    Depends on how "hybrid" it is. They definitely will tweak it and give us more control at the cost of something. The Focus skills were the first step in that. My proposals here offer some variation to a hybrid system but I'm also essentially proposing the concept of simply two swappable hotbars. You use one hotbar or the other; meaning you use one system or the other.

    I really do wonder how divisive the user base will be after the March release. If it's fairly evenly split, they're going to have a very tough decision, as no amount of dialing back is going to solve it.
     
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  8. Freeman

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    I'm more curious how it's going to be taken now that it's out in the wild. It's one thing when it's just dev+ forums full of fans of Garriott, and even then was devisive. Now, it's traveling through people who don't remember or don't care. Either I'm about to be very wrong, and this is going to pull in some new people, or I'm going to be very right, and this is going to be a PR problem until March.
     
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  9. PrimeRib

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    Many games have very different communities alpha vs beta vs on forums vs in game. Some people will spend hours figuring out the R/P/S of two classes / builds and what's not working. Sometimes big guilds will focus on end game or PvP or what happens when a lot of people push in one direction. Others will care about what color they can dye their gear.

    We have a lot of UO people. But who are they trying to attract? Do they want the LoL crowd? WoW people tend to try lot of other games between expansions but then go back when there's new content.
     
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  10. Freeman

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    @PrimeRib

    That's the million dollar question, and I think there may be a couple different targets on the team. Since Garriott's name is on the box, and he's saying U7 is the standard for most of the rest of the game, I'd expect that even UO isn't the target audience, but Old School Ultima Fans is. Not to say UO people won't find a lot to like here, but I think even they will be in for a shock on just how much the world reacts to them.

    Because those are the people who are going to get excited about the thought of no "!" above quest givers, no journal, no click to continue conversations, free form crafting, intricate house design, selective multiplayer etc. I've found few old school Ultima fans who are excited about this system, most are just 'we'll see' about it. And those who aren't, aren't unhappy with the status quo of combat. So unless this is a real "blow us away, gaming history has been made" moment in March, it feels like a dead end of gaming. An interesting idea, that's a bad fit for this game's audience.

    But then, like I said, I could be wrong. I may be in here in March saying "I was wrong" very loudly. But by then I wonder if anyone new will care, theyr'e going to judge it from articles and commontary before then. They're not going to sink their money in until someone else tries it. Where if everyone was excited about it, we'd be having a different conversation.
     
  11. tekkamansoul

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    I haven't read the entire thread (nor will I likely have time to!) But the write-up eases a lot of worry I had when watching the demo video. My only concern is probably that drawing skills, especially when the timer is set too fast or too slow can really clunk up combat. Properly applying a card game mentality to the draw system is kind of key. In a card game, you start each round with a full hand, generally, and the choice of card you play is your strategy. If skills are constantly fading in and out I worry that skill combos and forethought in combat planning will totally go out the window. Drawing may have to be more player feedback oriented in order to keep combat flowing in a fun way.My suggestion is to, perhaps, have auto attack draw one card, or some other maneuver (defend? "Ready"?) To manually advance the card flow.

    (Obviously I haven't played it though ;)
     
  12. Balrog

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    Interesting system to try. I can see combat requiring a lot of attention. I have little kids, and think that inconveniently timed interruptions are going to get me killed a lot. I've enjoyed the implementation of the card concept in cardhunter.com, but it's not timing based, and not directly translatable to a MMORPG. Looking forward to March.
     
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  13. BoMbY

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    I really like the card deck/drawing/discarding idea for the combat. That hopefully makes it less static and more thrilling.

    I'm a little bit concerned bit about the controls you're proposing, which could take a little bit long. Maybe you could go for simply pressing the combo shortcuts (almost) at the same time? And how is the targeting going to work? Tab-Targeting? Or auto-attacking what's in front of you? And what about area-spells? Or multiple targets? And currently you're using the spacebar, suggest there will be no jumping?

    And how's the level system going to work exactly? Is there a level cap? I kinda thought it would also be level-less. Is there a limit of Skills, etc. you can learn? Or can I learn all weapon skills, spells, etc? And will there be no passive skills, like Spell Resistence, or something?
     
  14. Ara

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    My feeling is that they dont want to attract the UO players that got used to the felucca UO
    playstyle.

    I dont feel this game getting anywhere close that kind of playstyle with its PvP and combat system.

    I believe they want to attract less hardcore PvP players like the themepark PvP players with its insurance and safe PvP.

    They should rewrite comnat from the beginning, hire Raph Koster and do a old UO combat system that required alot of playerskills and was amazingly fun.
     
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  15. aevans

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    I'm way out of date. Can you please define or describe this?
     
  16. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    Felucca is the original landmass in ultima online. In the Renaissance expansion EA split the normal playing area (light side or trammel) from the PvP playing area (dark side or felucca).

    The attached map should help. The bonehead move on EA's part to duplicate the landmass itself and not create a new one is for another discussion.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Ara

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  18. Sir_Hemlock

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    I think the proposed combat system is polarizing and has deadened the nerve of enthusiasm in a lot of people. The writing is on the wall...
     
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  19. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    I think the proposed combat system is innovative and exciting to try out. +1


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Dermott

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    I think the proposed combat system have thing I think are going to work very well (combos) and others that may not work as well (skills cycling in and out on a timer). Middle Way!
     
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