Looting items in PvP helps crafting! -- (Dev) Replied

@Lordslack

If items were damaged when looting I would loot everything any ways and then simply drop the damaged stuff I didn't actually want. That way the defeated player would not be able to rejoin the fight right away and be back up to full or near full strength. One way or another the defeated player is losing their stuff.

I have strategic reasons for ensuring that players cannot reclaim their belongings but I am also a firm believer that death should not be a consequence free experience. Full loot PvP in UO worked really really well in UO and I have yet to find a MMO since that comes anywhere close to recreating that experience.

What didn't work well in UO was the experience for those who were not interested in PvP. Selective Multiplayer will resolve that issue without forcing PvP to be dumbed down from what it was in UO.

 

I would definitely hope so.
One of the ideas I suggested in another thread was a backpack system which consists of 2 parts.
1) Part would be safe items
2) Would be overflow items which could be looted by other players, which could be crafting items

 

@mike11 - Why should some items be safe it they are easily replaceable and full loot would boost the need for crafters?

 

RG spoke of items holding abilities that could be salvaged. With that being said, full loot will help crafters.

 

Since SotA will basically be consensual PvP in regards to killing, I support the full loot ability. Any durability loss should be incurred through combat, not from the mere act of looting.

I would hope also that the virtue system plays a role in looting of corpses through PK. You had a choice to kill, and you did. You now have a choice to loot or not. I will support whatever decision Richard and Tracy makes in regards to what -- if any -- impact there is to your virtues by looting a corpse.

I only bring this up because of the Gypsy ring quest he's talked about frequently and is in the game play demo. You kill the wolves, and you are offered a wedding ring from the gypsy NPC. The decision to accept or reject the ring will have consequences for you later in the game -- good or bad, we don't know. I would like the same principle applied to looting, as I'm a big proponent of virtues being ingrained in this game's DNA.

In regards to whether or not it helps crafting, that is debatable. I can see how most PKs will either keep the epic gear and just trash the rest by leaving it there or selling to an NPC. I do think NPCs will buy low and sell high, as that's generally been the case in most RPGs (except the quick buy-back function before you quit the store interaction window).

 

"PvPers and PKers in general hoard or reduce the items to ingots to be recrafted. They don?t usually resell the items so they are out of the general economy.

I think there was a thread about it in the PvP area and they mostly said they didn?t resell the items they keep them. However B said they haven?t made the decision. I?m sure they will come up with something that works. I was just concerned"






It depends. PvPers spend most of their time....PvPing (Shock!). They don't spend time crafting, PvMing and in general farming gold.

A lot items taken would probably be kept for re-use (certainly with full looting). Normally any item that wouldn't be used by the PvPer would be sold on.

It was interesting in UO when AoS was launched. A lot of the 'true' PvPers disappeared and where replaced by the bank sitters as they were the PvMers who had all the money to purchase the new items.

For full loot in PvP to work, the items have to be simple and not too expensive to replace. Personally I don't believe any item should be blessed or bound to a character.........why should it?

 

'I?d like to see intelligent monsters loot players so they are forced to hurry back before another player kills the monster. Not sure how this functions fairly with instances though?"
This was actually implemented in UO.

Also, I fully support full loot in PvP.

 

@Smack

I really like the virtue idea. Even though I strongly believe the players should have the option to loot a defeated player the game should keep track of this just as killing another player is tracked.

Looting should not automatically be considered as a dubious act in all cases though.
For example, you should be able to loot a party member or guild mates stuff to keep it safe from others without negatively effecting your standing in the eight virtues. Likewise, you should not be penalized for looting an enemy that you or your guild are officially at war with.

 

@TemplarAssassin: I think that would work well with quests, especially. You die in a PvE quest, and as a consequence, certain items, perhaps quest related or not, are taken from your corpse by the MOB or NPC upon your return.

@ND3G: Yep, totally agreed. The context in which the looting happened will be known (tracked in-game), so your virtue will take a hit, or not, accordingly. We're still not sure how looting is even implemented yet, but I hope they see this and consider virtues as part of its design.

 

This thread has drifted far away from a Crafting Thread.

My opinion: Full Loot optional for PvPers and forced on PvP Guilds, Yes (since those players will most likely only be put in shards with other players, who use the same options, this should be no problem).

But I don't support Full Loot for every PvP content. Lord British stated, he wants incentives to get PvE players do PvP content. The prospect of loosing all gear (especially when it's more important than in Ultima Online (we don't know enough about gear yet)) will definitely not help there.

The exception would be, that you could loose your gear everywhere. But then, gear has to be exceptionally useless, because players must be able to replace it all the time (there is nothing more ridiculous about Ultima Online than those naked PvP players). Otherwise this would get frustrating very fast. But when the gear isn't interesting in the game and people start doing content naked again, crafting will definitely suffer.

 

Hm, I just read, what Lord British said in this thread: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=player-made-vs-game-made-question-and-idea&paged=1

"We think items should have a condition which encourages you to maintain (repair) it.
Older equipment becomes more costly to repair as it gets older and older.
Thus you can always decide, do I like this item enough to continue to maintain it?
When is the right time to retire it and hang it on the wall (except for some special occasions)?
When should I just recycle / salvage it.
I like the idea of salvage, as it likely has both good ?memories? as well as cool abilities you could get back!"

And: "Oh, I also like the idea that dropped loot, is usually far more ?basic?: than crafted items, which gives value to a crafter!"

During development, everything can change, off course, but according to this Lord British likes an idea, that people get fond of and grow on their equipment (and I'd support that idea). In such an environment, I'd support Full Loot only for players, that really want to play with full loot (and such can only be looted by other players with such an options, whether through an option or in a PvP guild environment. Otherwise, just as an example, when a player looses his favorite weapon, he got fond of, this would result in a lot of frustration.

Please consider: Not every player has the playtime to replace equipment on the spot, even when he tries to hoard it. And every player has a specific frustration point, where something snaps and he simply says: Enough, it's not worth it anymore.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for Full Loot and Open PvP for players, that really want to play in such a high risk environment. But this should be optional through sliders, Guilds, etc.

Cheers,
Andreas

P.S. A Dev Tracker would be highly welcome. This interesting post from Lord British was 11 days old and I only found it by chance

 

"But when the gear isn?t interesting in the game and people start doing content naked again, crafting will definitely suffer."

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I don't know that the gear need not be uninteresting, but it shouldn't be the primary focus of improving your player in-game. One problem with most gear-based games is that better and better stuff is available only through running dungeons in parties and downing the "big boss". Meanwhile, the gear crafters can make remains stagnant. What that means is that it's not long before even the best thing a crafter can make is weak compared to what you can find through hack and slash in dungeons. I wold prefer a game less dependent on getting the very best gear -- where a moderately skilled player can beat a highly skilled player because they have somewhat better gear -- than on mechanics and game skill. But if there will be some dependence on gear, the best stuff should generally be crafted, not looted from monsters. A very rare loot drop from a monster that's the best in slot? Fine -- as the rare exception, not the rule.

Not doing this, IMO, is why crafters seem to become irrelevant deeper into just about any expansion of any gear-based game. Hopefully that won't be repeated here.

 

Risk vs. reward. If you're a PvE and you're being enticed to doing a PvP quest (e.g. the contraband one), don't go walking through the PvP zone with your best / favorite / epic gear. If the goal of the contraband quest is to hightail it from point A to point B, don't carry your entire net worth with you. RG's intentions are exactly that: enticing you to take the risk vs the reward. Choice is yours.

Likewise in PvP battles. You want a better advantage to win battles? Sure, bring your epic sword at the risk of losing it. Don't want to lose it, ok bring a lower quality one but risk dying easier by those that do take the risk to wear their epic gear. Cuts both ways.

If you're going to go mining or chopping wood for high value rare resources in a highly contested resource node (ie PvP zone), don't wear all your bling so the PK can gank you and take it. Just bring what is necessary to gather the resources and hightail it out of there. If the resource requires an epic shovel or epic axe otherwise you can't mine or chop? Risk losing your epic shovel for the epic ores, or don't go there. Take your epic shovel to other high value for other rare ores in PvE zones. But they're not the exact ores in the contested node since you don't want to take the risk of losing it.

 

"If you?re going to go mining or chopping wood for high value rare resources in a highly contested resource node (ie PvP zone), don?t wear all your bling so the PK can gank you and take it. Just bring what is necessary to gather the resources and hightail it out of there. If the resource requires an epic shovel or epic axe otherwise you can?t mine or chop? Risk losing your epic shovel for the epic ores, or don?t go there. Take your epic shovel to other high value for other rare ores in PvE zones. But they?re not the exact ores in the contested node since you don?t want to take the risk of losing it."

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This all sounds reasonable. I think it's fine (and appropriate) to do these things to encourage voluntary PvP among those who would normally avoid it. There should be potential incentives for engaging in it, but it shouldn't be required in order to accomplish anything major. If you avoid it, you may accumulate resources more slowly, you may need to grind a little more to turn lesser resources into greater resources or something, but it needs to be reasonably doable. The grinding shouldn't be so excessive as to turn off a large part of the player base, though.

Using your ores example, perhaps the PvP zones yield more of it, or they yield more of a particular rare type of ore. But they are not the only source of that kind of ore, whether because other PvE zones spawn it (with less frequency) or because you can mine lesser ores and have a crafter create the ingots made from rare ores out of the lesser ore (plus other ingredients and skill).

 

Exactly. Using Gold and Platinum as a crude example:

High risk PvE zone: gold abundant, platinum rare
High risk PvP zone: gold rare, platinum abundant

Having said that, I would not be entirely against exclusive resources in either zone as well.

Enlist the resources of friends or hire other players as a player-generated Resource Quest that you can post on an in-game job-board if you really want the exclusive (or even rare) resource and don't want to do it yourself and take the risk of losing your Epic Gear.

 

@smack: this sound reasonable one the one hand, but on the other hand like too much tedious preparation and busy work for every mission/combat; but maybe it works, when your pet can go back to your house and get your second (third/fourth/etc.) equipment for you

 

Not only does looting make crafting important, it also make the game exciting. I use to shake because I knew there was a pk chasing me through the dungeon and I could lose all I worked for. It was exciting. I am a big supporter of looting at ALL times. I didn't have a red character but when trammel came out, I quit. I hated the fact that everything was all peachy. People would be next to each other killing monsters in a dungeon and fighting over who got to do the most damage. It made UO much less exciting and I just lost interest.

 

It is quite simple. For something to have value it must be in some way limited.

If it can't be looted when you die by mosters, NPCs, or players then it must be lost when you die.

#commonsense

 

For my part, while I might be willing to try whichever consensual PvP the game offers, don't ever expect to see me playing any PvP mode where I can be looted. The possibility of being looted is a huge deal breaker for me.

 

That's too bad, its like you're agreeing to duel someone head on in a knife fight, but unwilling to fight to the death.
Or to face off in a pistol draw but only shooting blanks.

I'd like the PvP to have risk involved; full loot would certainly do the trick- short of that, durability loss has also worked in the past for many games.
'Open PvP' implies playing with PvP enabled at all might mean agreeing to all PvP enabled rulesets.
For those of us who won't be participating with this setting; please enjoy the PvE and story content the dev team has to offer to the fullest.